Ozpin's entry: significant spoilers for Volume 4 being discussed here, so bear that in mind before reading further:
- Body Surf: After his defeat at Cinder's hands in the Volume 3 finale, Volume 4 reveals that his soul now inhabits Oscar's body. He is able to communicate with the boy and even pass along memories. Ozpin also states that he was on the receiving end of a similar situation when he was younger.
There's no doubt that the fandom as a whole thinks there's a Body Surf going on, and it looks like that to me as well. However, the show hasn't confirmed it and the situation is still ambiguous enough for it to be one of several things.
Ozpin didn't say his soul inhabits Oscar. What he said was that their Auras and souls have merged (which as some sci-fi and fantasy stories have shown, can happen when the two individuals are both still independently alive but are going through a unique shared (and reversible) experience due to some situation that's the reason for the plotline). He did not explain why beyond the cryptic comment that both he and Oscar were born special and a similar thing happened to him when he was a child. He certainly hasn't told us whether or not his body has been destroyed, or whether or not the situation is reversible (an argument can be made that his discussion with Pyrrha suggests it's not reversible, but then his discussion with Pyrrha itself raises questions about whether or not Oscar's situation is truly as similar as it superficially appears to be).
If it's a Body Surf, then - going by the trope (which is necessary for the trope to be applied) - Oscar should be receiving whatever body surfed into Ozpin when Ozpin was a child. It shouldn't be Ozpin himself because Ozpin is implying to Oscar that the original Ozpin (before the experience) is still intact despite the experience and is the person Oscar is talking to now. If that isn't the case, that means Ozpin is either lying or telling a half-truth to Oscar (and his discussions with Pyrrha do raise that warning flag).
Until we know more about Ozpin's childhood experience, and what/why his Aura and soul merged with, and what the ultimate fate was of whomever was talking inside the childhood Ozpin's head, we don't know if the trope is Body Surfer and, if it is the trope, whether Ozpin is the Body Surfer or whatever entity gave Ozpin the childhood experience that Oscar is now going through.
tl;dr — my point is that, while I completely understand the Body Surf theory, it's the fandom's main theory right now rather than something the show has confirmed as definite. Now, if it does turn out to be the Body Surf trope, we'll have something to add to the I Knew It! trope as well, but it is for now just the fandom's interpretation of the clues, rather than the confirmed reality.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading. Hide / Show Replies
Yep, that's a WMG. Axe it.
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Note, the entry was added back to the page but shouldn't be until the issue of confirmation versus WMG has been resolved.
While the World of Remnant episode on the Great War certainly does add some interesting additional speculation to the roles Ozpin may have played throughout history (if this trope is in effect), we're still in the WMG stage. Nothing's been confirmed.
For now, fans are just joining dots and hoping the picture they've created is the right one.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
I... have to agree for now. As much as I want to add the Body Surf and maybe expand the King Incognito tropes, there's not 100% clear evidence that it's as we think it is. And I'm not sure how to do the "two souls in one body" concept. Closest trope I can think of is Mind Hive, which doesn't quite fit.
Maybe Our Souls Are Different?
I completely agree with the feeling about Body Surf, I've been using it in forum conversations myself but we do need to hold off for now. And... yeah, that's one hell of a King Incognito example if it gets confirmed.
I agree that Our Souls Are Different is the best option for now. That's the one thing that is confirmed - it's something funky that can happen with souls under artificial circumstances (Penny and the aborted attempt with Pyrrha); we just don't know what the nature of it is for Ozpin and Oscar... Ozpin says they were both 'born special' which doesn't tell us much right now, but he does explicitly talk about their souls and Auras merging, so that trope'll work.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Will see you behind the fourth wall.
I took a look at the gif of Ozpin blocking projectiles and instead of being a barrier, it looks more like he sped himself up to block each individual projectile.
"Mass-production models have to show their pride, too!"-Gimmy, leader of the Grapearl team. Hide / Show Replies
Yes, that's what it looks like to many people. There have been a lot of Neo/Matrix jokes circulating about that scene because that's what it reminds people of.
I think the overwhelming theory is that his Semblance is time-manipulation.
Anyway, I've corrected the entry. He is still the trope as he does employ barriers during the fight. It's just that the scene used in the example is the wrong scene to use.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Bit of a late reply, but in the Volume Three commentaries on the DVD, it's mentioned that Ozpin's Cane can "store time", mentioned very specifically like that, but they didn't elaborate.
Just thought it should be noted.
considering adding this to Velvet's entry regarding her weapon:
- Awesome, yet Impractical: Velvet's weapon was shown to produce some very powerful and spectacular effects, but it also raises some questions regarding its viability in the field, such as how long each photograph is usable for, how she remembers which ones she has used and which ones she has remaining, and whether or not she is completely defenseless when her supply of photos has run out.
Thoughts? EDIT: Or would this work better as a Fridge Logic entry?
Edited by LordKnightcon Hide / Show Replies
That's a Fridge Logic entry, as written. Anything that makes you realise a conclusion that's outside the work is a Fridge example.
That said, I think fans have been saying that the creators have said that her photos are one-shot use only. We do see her starting to snap photos of everyone's weapons again after her fight is over, which does imply within the show itself that her photos are one-shot.
We've seen her fight without using her weapon, however. Monty also said that she's both very athletic and a mage-character, and we haven't yet seen her "mage" abilities. So we know she's definitely not defenceless without her weapon.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Ok, I'll tweak it a little bit for grammar and add it to the fridge page.
The hints are that it probably is this this trope. We need proper confirmation that it's definitely one-shot use, but it will probably end up on this page eventually.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
- Actually, the girls were just supposed to do a survey of the area, and happened upon Roman's plot entirely by accident. They were there as scouts.
The question was raised, so may as well discuss it properly:
As I understand it, the second bullet entry is wrong. While the girls did find the exact location of the White Fang by accident, they went there with the explicit intention of locating the White Fang using their Grimm-hunting mission as an excuse to be in the area at all. It was made very clear the girls were going there to investigate the White Fang and that Ozpin arranged the mission for them to give them that opportunity.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading. Hide / Show Replies
Yeah, I think the exact parameters of their mission are irrelevant here. The girls definitely picked that mission because it was near the WF base and Ozpin was both well aware of that and notably didn't send any other teams to investigate the base either. He trusted his students with a dangerous and important mission, like a stereotypical fantasy teacher, and it blew up in his face, deconstructing the idea.
In the absence of any compelling counterpoint (or any at all, for that matter), I'm gonna go ahead and add that back in.
I actually wouldn't because it is actually wrong for what we were told in the episode, and it's an Example Indentation issue as well - as it stands, it's a Repair Dont Respond breach, but providing wrong information for the entry it's attempting to repair.
Edited to add: I see what's happened. You've added the main Deconstruction entry back. I didn't realised I'd removed that as I was querying the sub-bullet point entry, not the main example. Sorry about that! I've got no problems with the main entry, it's the sub-bullet that was the issue.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Ozpin entry removed and added on multiple occasions, even after a different trope was agreed as being more appropriate:
- O.O.C. Is Serious Business: Ozpin remains cool, calm, rational and reasonable under almost any circumstance you can imagine. He may have displayed signs of anger and annoyance on occasion, but he has always managed to keep his composure. So when we see him lose his temper for the first time after Cinder has made her move, destroyed Penny, delivered her "The Reason You Suck" Speech to the world and unleashed an army of Grimm and White Fang on Vale you know this poop just got real.
Beneath the Mask was originally agreed to better reflect the fact that Ozpin displays a calm, genial demeanour in public to his students, but appears to be more emotionally expressive in private when dealing with the adult members of his secret organisation, where he's portrayed a range of emotions (angry outbursts, frustration, head-cradling, disbelief, open-mouthed shock, mild irritation, etc.)
E.g., his Volume 2 outburst towards Ironwood has him leap out of his chair, emphatically stabbing a finger in the air as he all but shouts at Ironwood. In the current situation, he displays a more muted, controlled anger when ordering Ironwood to use his army to protect Vale. Relevant to the example's wording above, on both occasions, his anger is rational, reasonable and serves to bring Ironwood into line.
Nothing he displays after Cinder goes public is beyond expectations for him, given both his past behaviour and the current situation, and the main split in his behaviour is not past versus recent, it's how he behaves around students versus how he behaves around his fellow (adult) secret-keepers - hence the decision to use Beneath the Mask as a better fit for what we see in the show.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Really Wish There Was Someone To Vent To Now.
- The Worf Effect: After her strong showing during the Season 2 finale, her fight with Emerald ends with her being easily outmaneuvered and taken down in one sneak attack.
Why was this commented out? It's not Zero Context, and it's clear that Emerald and Mercury's easy defeat of them was designed to show how powerful Emerald and Mercury were.
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I think it's because Pyrrha and the Grimm have already been worfed that their worfing is redundant.
The Worf Effect, that happens when a powerful character is beaten to establish a new threat. But we already knew that Merc and Em were really dangerous. We saw them kill Tukson, we saw Merc going toe-to-toe and even beating Pyrrha before he threw that fight and we saw Emerald wipe out a street full of Grimm like it was nothing. Merc and Emerald are established fighters before they fought Coco and Yatsu.
The Worf Had the Flu is also irrelevant. Coco may have been using different bullets but that is irrelevant because she never landed a shot. At this point in time, Neo participating is speculation. Even then if she appeared it was a one time part and wouldn't have changed the outcome of the fight at all since her potential illusion was made irrelevant when Coco saw that Yatsu was KO'd.
The level of the threat matters. We knew Merc and Em were capable and dangerous, but we also know that about Ruby or Yang. Tukson may not have had his Aura unlocked, which makes his prowess irrelevant. Since Merc threw the first fight, that doesn't count as solid capability, and neither does Emerald taking out the Grimm as they were an entirely different threat and don't count as characters in their own right. This is the first time we really see Emerald and Mercury participating in a real fight with the other characters.
As for Worf Had The Flu, that is just nonsensical. There is no point to illegally participating in a fight without changing the outcome. How the fight went also matches Neo's modus operandi, with Emerald and Mercury at one point disappearing entirely from an area where they shouldn't have been able to escape from.
Edited by SilenceInTheLibrary
The theory of Neo being somehow involved in that fight contradicts several other important facts: The forcefield that prevents anyone and anything from entering or getting out, the cameras that broadcast every second of the fight, the preaparations for the battlefields beforehand, the fact that Neo is just a secondary character introduced for Roman at the last minute and thus her relevancy is meant to stay minimal, the different sounds in Semblances, the fact that Emerald lost Aura even though she never visibly got hit and that the blur doesn't match her colors:
Here's the image with increased brightness so the real colors can be easier to notice.
That's not Neo. It's Emerald.
This is no speculation board. Theories won't be accepted so unless it's confirmed then Neo's unlikely involvement in this fight won't be added or even mentioned at all.
Edited by LadWatcher
I was thinking of something else like Break the Badass since this one doesn't need the character to be unknown in terms of strength. The term of Break the Badass says:
"When the audience needs to be shown how physically dangerous an enemy is."
And as the term says: By defeating one of the strongest characters presented so far. Sure, Emerald and Mercury were already shown to be strong but it was never made clear that they were above everyone else. For instance, we saw Coco defeating several powerful and gigantic Grimm while Mercury and Emerald defeated normal ones. This proves that they're both capable and even emphasizes Coco's ability more than the bad guys but it never makes clear how huge difference of power exists between these characters.
Killing Tukson? When was it made clear the guy was strong? Keeping up with Pyrrha? Sure. When did he truly defeat her though? Defeating smaller Grimm? Even Jaune does that without much effort now.
In summary, Mercury and Emerald were never truly defined as above everyone. So Break the Badass seems to apply in this case given that Coco and Yatsuhashi were defined in the finale with the word Badass in big letters, only to be defeated without much effort by even greater badasses. And evil ones which is also noted to be necessary for this term to apply.
Bro, you failed to finish reading. Break the Badass is more on the mental side than the physical one. "When the audience needs to be shown how physically dangerous an enemy is, the creators invoke The Worf Effect, or maybe they throw a Sacrificial Lamb (or worse, a Sacrificial Lion) in the path of the bad guy. But when the producers don't feel like killing one of their characters yet, but still need to show the audience just how dangerous the situation is, they often resort to breaking the badass by having the hardest, coldest, roughest, toughest, most jaded and violent, seen-it-all character become shocked out of their wits by it."
It outright says that when it's physical, it's usually the Worf Effect. There may be some for it, given how Coco got spooked when Yatsuhashi vanished, but that's more spooked than broken.
The Worf Effect is a clear trope that matches what happened: an enemy easily overpowers someone considerably strong, in order to convey how powerful the new enemy is. Coco and Yatsuhashi are the strong characters that get worfed, having easily taken out Grimm much beyond anything the heroes, or indeed Emerald or Mercury on the same day, handled. Emerald and Mercury are that threat. Fits like a glove.
Edited by SilenceInTheLibrary
Since I originally commented it out, I'll explain that my reasoning was a combination of everything jboone said about the villains along with two other factors, one being that we knew Cinder had fixed the fight, so we knew before the fight even began that Yatsuhashi and Coco were going to lose.
The other problem is that CFVY has only ever fought once against Grimm (not people) in a fight where absolutely everyone involved (from first-years to teachers, and even a dog) turned the Grimm threat into mook-sauce. This fight became the biggest fandom complaint about the Volume 2 finale due to the accusation that it reduced the Grimm to mooks and destroyed the sense of there ever being a threat to Vale by having everyone wipe out the Grimm so easily. We also only got an introductory glimpse of Yatsuhashi, Velvet and Fox fighting so the focus could stay on Coco's mini-gun, which tells us very little about their true abilities.
@ Lad Watcher and Silence in the Library: on the grounds of a mental aspect, Break the Badass may apply because although the fandom panned the Volume 2 finale fight for being too easy for everyone, there was general agreement that Coco was one big Rule of Cool moment. In this tournament fight, however, the focus was on how spooked out Emerald made her before Coco was defeated. It's possible an argument might be made for applying the trope to Coco (not Yatsuhashi, though). However, my concern would be that since you're trying to trope it on the basis of two scenes, it's hard to break a badass when they've only had one fight that was ruled by the fandom to be problematic and disappointing (in terms of establishing threat levels, suspense and dangerousness).
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Correction: CVFY has not fought only once against Grimm. Aside from being second-years and probably having fought thousands, Velvet explains midway through Volume 2 that the reason they are back so late is because there were that many dangerous and powerful Grimm, and a Huntsman was with them—Coco was not the only one pulling weight on that mission. So we know before they even fight that the CFVY are badasses and are a cut above everyone else.
So what this thread has established: - Emerald and Mercury's combat prowess was not well established and largely a mystery - Coco and Yatsuhashi's combat prowess was long since established firmly, no matter how few fight scenes they have partaken in. - Mercury and Emerald were shown to curb stomp Coco and Yatsuhashi to show how capable and dangerous they are, because of the first two.
Unless there is something more concrete here, I would really like to edit it back in. It's one trope.
Edited by SilenceInTheLibrary
It doesn't matter how many off-screen battles Team CFVY - or any other character - has had in their lives. The show has only ever shown us one Team CFVY vs. Grimm fight so far, and it was very piece-meal and limited because there were so many characters and the CFVY action was mostly focussed on Coco's gun action.
We know they're older students than the first-year newbies (the fandom can't agree on how much older), but they are still students and therefore not yet graduated from school. That's all we actually know.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
There is no convincing you, is there? This is a school to train demon-slaying forces of nature. They went on the mission with a qualified huntsman. We saw each of them demonstrate prowess none of the main characters did. It doesn't matter if there was only one fight previously or if the focus was mainly on Coco's gatling gun (it wasn't; it was actually only about 10 seconds and it was only the highlight). We know they are established badasses and that Em/Merc's easy beating of them served to establish them as bigger threats.
That is all we need to know. That is qualification for Worf Effect. I'm sorry, but if there isn't a rule in the way, I'm editing it back.
Just a little correction here Silence. It's not confirmed but greatly implied that Team CFVY wasn't shadowing a hunter. They were on their own in that mission.
Ozpin: "As first year students, you will be shadowing a huntsman..."
Velvet: (To RWBY) "Oh but don't worry. You're first year students so you'll be shadowing a huntsman. You should be fine."
If I'm not wrong then Team CFVY spent several days fighting Grimm and survived. It came to the point where everyone looked at them with awe when they finally came back. They're strong to the point they don't act as backup for hunters. They are considered hunters already.
As for the Grimm issue. Here's my two cents: It's unfair to say that Grimm can't be used as measurement for how strong a character is based on a single fight. Sure, they were defeated but take in account that the main characters only took part on it but they weren't the turning point. The military was there. We watched the soldiers drop into the city from every direction and eliminate the Grimm. It was a lucky shot. It did make it look easy but there is a reason why the show is basically Mankind vs Monsters. This was just a lucky shot and not even the main dish.
Instead of claiming that victories over Grimm are not enough to prove someone is very strong, why don't we wait a little longer to judge that? This show is going to get dark. Volume 2 was mostly filler because of its technical problems. Grimm were never meant to look so harmless. They just haven't gotten a chance to show just how dangerous they can truly be.
Plus Coco has a gatling gun so she doesn't count as an example of how easy the Grimm can be. Give the same weapon to any character and you get the same results... on that note, Coco shouldn't really count as a badass now that I look at it that way since she basically had the perfect weapon for the perfect situation.
Edited by LadWatcher
I'm not seeing how this turns the point away from Worf Effect in any way. It just seems to back me up.
Except for that Coco bit. The weapon doesn't matter so much as a character's competency with it. Given that Coco can wield it and shred Grimm (mind you, this is a PERSONAL weapon, not a military-standard one—it wasn't the perfect weapon for the perfect situation, it was just her own weapon) and she can beat Grimm up just fine without it, she definitely still counts.
Instead of claiming that victories over Grimm are not enough to prove someone is very strong, why don't we wait a little longer to judge that? This show is going to get dark. Volume 2 was mostly filler because of its technical problems. Grimm were never meant to look so harmless. They just haven't gotten a chance to show just how dangerous they can truly be.
Completely 100% agree. So, let me clarify why I raised it in the first place.
We have a situation where a lot of fans - including those who post to this site's forum thread - complain that the Volume 2 finale was a wash out - no suspense, no threat, no sense of danger; the Grimm were treated as mooks, they can't be taken seriously as a threat because even kids can mow them down so easily, etc., and so on.
As someone who actually likes the finale, I always feel in the minority. When I see something like The Worf Effect being troped, in part because of scenes a lot of fans everywhere have written off as unthreatening and too easy for the characters, I am going to question it because it seems contradictory to my experience of what appears to be the majority. And that's what the Discussion Page is for - finding out what the majority consensus about these trope examples actually is.
On this subject, Silence, you mentioned that I can't be convinced. I'm an individual on a site that works by consensus, you don't have to convince me. I'll go with the majority consensus, even if the consensus is the very opposite of what I personally believe.
Only a couple of us have done most of the posting here, but a number of people have removed it from the page. We need a clear idea of what the decision should be - even if the decision turns out to be what Lad Watcher has suggested (wait and see - which is often a very good idea).
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Whether that fact "backs you up" or not, Silence, it's irrelevant. What's important is to consider all facts to ensure we're not missing anything when we make our final conclusion. What I meant by perfect weapon for the perfect situation is a call back from her fight with Mercury and Emerald where she had the worst weapon for the worst situation. A rigged battle against fast enemies while wielding a weapon designed to do splash damage. But this one needed a weapon that could focus on a single target. That makes her demonstration against Grimm nothing too impressive since she made it look easy because she had a huge upper hand. Just like how she had a huge handicap in the tournament.
So basically, Wyldchyld, you want us to be more patience and wait for more examples we can apply to that trope before placing it? I can do that. I'm still waiting to see if Jaune counts as "The people person" since all the other characters have been described as loners or not very socially adept people but the show is slowly proving otherwise with each scene with JNPR.
It's very relevant. It's what the argument is about.
Her demonstration against Grimm is very impressive because that's what it was designed to be. Her personal weapon is no different than Nora's grenade launcher/war-hammer combo. It is extremely powerful, but it will have situations where it works and where it doesn't, and they will have to work with it regardless.
You are right in that Cinder likely thought of Coco's weapon's disadvantages when selecting opponents, but we have no proof of that, so it can't be counted against Worf Effect.
It's been three days since the last post here. I have the opinion on the Trope Finder that Coco was worfed, along with As Lethal as It Needs to Be and Concealment Equals Cover for Emerald. What's more, tropes are not dependent on what's popular, they're dependent on whether they fit or not. Just as well, The Worf Effect very rarely is repeated, so waiting and seeing doesn't work out. It's very unlikely Emerald and Mercury will fight Coco and Yatsushashi again.
If it gets removed again, fine, I'll drop it. But I strongly advise against doing so, because there's just no point to it.
I'm not going to remove it again. I will ask you what the Trope Finder is, because I'm not sure what you mean by that.
I do think you need a lot more patience with dealing with whether or not a trope should be added to a page, especially when Discussion Pages are used - a lot of site users don't look at Discussion Pages, so discussions can take a number of days for people to become aware of a discussion and join in.
You will find on this site that whether or not even objective tropes fit can very much depend on whether or not the majority thinks they fit. Even with objective tropes, it can be difficult to determine whether examples from a work is relevant to that trope. That's why the forums, Discussion Pages and Ask The Tropers exist.
Sometimes, it needs a discussion to find out what the consensus is. When that happens, patience is always a virtue.
Edited to add: I just realised by "Trope Finder", you meant Lost and Found. I've just read that discussion. There is no consensus in that discussion at all. Just a group of suggestions and a couple of attempts to clarify the scenes. I reiterate what I've said above. You need much more patience with working out whether a trope properly applies. You keep adding them back to the page when it hasn't really been agreed - either here or on Lost and Found - what the best thing to do actually is.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
This was added back without an edit reason:
- Nerves of Steel: Subverted. Despite being an experienced third year, in her fight against Emerald, seeing Yatsuhashi approach her only to hear he's been knocked out, and abruptly disappears, has her rattled enough that she's visibly shaking.
It's been added because of a single fight scene. The next time we see Coco fight, she's shaking with nerves while trying to fight with an unseen opponent. That isn't a subversion, it just shouldn't have been added on the basis of a single scene.
Also... just what year group are CFVY in? The show has never said. I've seen people say they're second-years, final-year students, and this example now claims they're third-years. Do we know?
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading. Hide / Show Replies
It still applies as an example is not arguable. The episode made it a point to show it. Now, I don't recall where it's said tropes needed to be shown continuously to be sited (what's the threshold? 2,3,4 times?), but regardless of the original post pointing to the Volume 2 finally, they are still older, more experienced students that have been shown to go on missions deemed too dangerous for first years.
It's a subversion however you slice it.
And yes, CFVY is a second-year team, so that part was indeed in error, and needs correction.
A trope is only subverted if it's been set up, then noticeably averted despite the set up. The example as written doesn't seem to imply the Nerves of Steel trope is really set up other than being a third year, which seems... weak, at best.
If they're shown in a dangerous situation and they look like they're all cool and collected, but then immediately collapse, that would be a subversion. But just "doesn't have Nerves of Steel" isn't.
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I would say being established as an older more experienced student, and shown to have a blasé attitude to danger and violence both in Volume 2 finally, and preflight talk with Emerald, is a good enough set up to qualify as a subversion.
The episode made a point to show Coco was cool and awesome, not that she had Nerves of Steel. The Grimm she stared down was shown to be no match for her, she also told Velvet not to bother wasting her weapon on a situation like this. It just wasn't a Nerves of Steel situation for them.
All we have right now are two conflicting situations - one where she was cocky and cool, one where she was a Nervous Wreck. Two scenes that contradict each other means we can't yet trope it.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
You seem to be confused about my argument. I'm not saying the Volume 2 finale made a point to invoke nerves of steel, I'm saying Lesson's Learned made a point of showing her clearly shaking after it was established she's experienced in dangerous situations, and displayed an obvious casual attitude when facing conflict. Thus it is indeed a subversion.
Someone can't have Nerves of Steel unless they're in a position where they're needed. If Wyldchyld is correct, she's only been in instances where she wasn't actually in any danger. It doesn't take Nerves of Steel to be calm when you're in no danger.
To be subverted, a trope has to be set up. Otherwise it's not a subversion, it's an aversion. Which isn't notable.
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There are no fights in this show where someone is in no danger. We know Cinder fixed the fight and Emerald and Mercury are capable of casual murder, so even if it's organized competition, there's no reason to discount danger. Remember, the very first task given to the initiates at Beacon was to go into the forest, get something, come back, and not die along the way. Grimm may not be much of a threat—but they take human life out of an evil compulsion and with no hesitation.
The subversion likely isn't applicable, as even if Nerves of Steel IS, and I think it is judging by her actions in The Breach, they didn't bring up her unshakeable demeanor again before showing her spooked. I say, keep Nerves of Steel, remove the subversion part.
Ozpin entry:
- Fatal Flaw: His secrecy. In Volume 2, Ozpin is seen in contact with Qrow, by way of the message "Queen has pawns", and James Ironwood is aware Ozpin is keeping important information from him. By Volume 3, Ironwood reveals that Qrow was supposed to be in the field, and had been presumed compromised, as he hadn't had any reports from him. Qrow's anger is partly a result of his life being risked for someone who apparently didn't care (Ironwood). Qrow's prolonged stay in battle was directly due to Ozpin not bothering to share the fact that he was alive with the rest of his coalition.
Ironwood only thinks Ozpin is hiding information from him. The show has not claimed Ironwood's right and has had Glynda outright tell him he's wrong.
Qrow's rant about risking his life is based on Ironwood's behaviour, so shouldn't be troped under Ozpin anyway.
The reason why no-one contacted Qrow is justified in-universe by Winter, who says everyone was afraid he'd been compromised. Winter does not exclude Ozpin from that.
Why Qrow went dark is not discussed at all, so it cannot be troped.
Even if Ozpin is keeping secrets (and I do think he is), nothing has happened yet that would justify the Fatal Flaw trope. In fact, part of Qrow's rant to Ironwood consists of him justifying the need for absolute secrecy and implying that, out of the group, only Ozpin wanted Ironwood brought into the loop.
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What Winter says doesn't matter, and neither do Ozpin's reasons for bringing Ironwood into the loop. What matters is what we see, and we see A) Ozpin in contact with Qrow, B) Ironwood and his forces under the impression Qrow was MIA or killed, and C) that Qrow is angry at being left in danger without support.
The implication on Ironwood's part is that, had they been in contact and sure of Qrow's survival, troops would have been sent. We know Ironwood doesn't like to lay back and let things fold out like Ozpin does. However, Ironwood did not know that, and so did not do that. Ozpin's willing failure to send troops or inform someone who would was the factor that risked Qrow's life, and so he is at fault. Whether Winter excludes Ozpin or not doesn't matter, because we already know that Ozpin knew he was alive and not compromised, because they were in contact, which defies "compromised". Ozpin knew better and failed to act.
I am also pretty sure Glynda doesn't tell Ironwood he's wrong. What she says is to trust Ozpin because he has more experience than either of them.
If you insist his secrecy isn't the flaw, then maybe we can change it to his inaction or bare minimum of action. We DO know that is a flaw of his that has cost and risked lives—the Breach was a result of that.
We can see from what Ironwood says that he's been given information from Qrow. And we know from the argument in Ozpin's office that Ironwood was fully aware of Qrow's "Queen has pawns" message because of the way Qrow is openly talking about the infiltrator not being the pawn they originally thought to Ozpin, Ironwood and Glynda.
The trope entry says "Ironwood is aware Ozpin..." bas if the show has confirmed that Ironwood is right about Ozpin keeping secrets. I do think Ironwood is right, but the show hasn't confirmed it; Ironwood's belief is based on a gut feeling related to how passive Ozpin's attitude to the threat seems to be, and the show has actively used Glynda to dismiss Ironwood's gut feeling.
Ironwood's words to Glynda are "I can't help feeling that he's keeping us in the dark" and Glynda's response is "Don't be ridiculous. You know very well that we are not the ones in the dark."
This scene occurs between Ironwood, Ozpin, Glynda, Winter and Qrow.
Qrow's arrival seems to surprise both Ironwood and Ozpin. They both separately ask him why he's here. Ironwood does complain that Qrow's been out of contact for weeks, and tells him off for going dark. He's not acting like Ozpin's keeping secrets about Qrow's activities, he's acting like Qrow's the one who went dark on all of them (including Ozpin).
There is nothing in that scene that says Qrow's situation was directly due to Ozpin not bothering to share information. Qrow says his intel is that the enemy is here, to which Ironwood says "we know" which triggers Qrow's rant about risking his life to keep "you all informed". The scene is indicating there's been a breakdown in communication between Qrow and Ozpin/Ironwood/Glynda because Qrow went dark leaving the other three with no choice but to assume he'd been compromised. Winter even tries to explain this point to Qrow and says "they had reason to assume you'd been compromised" where "they" is Ironwood, Ozpin and Glynda (and herself by default, given that she clearly knows about the mission and about the fear of compromise).
At the moment, the show only tells us that Ironwood has a gut feeling that Ozpin is hiding something and that Glynda has dismissed that feeling. The show has not shown us anything concrete to back up Ironwood's gut feeling and the trope example above does not accurately present the scenes it's using to justify the trope entry.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
If Ozpin hid that information, then he's clearly not going to let on about it in front of Ironwood. That's all there is to it. I'm not working by what the show tells us, I'm working by what the show shows us, and it shows us that Ozpin is aware of Qrow's status and does nothing about it.
A character can't show what they don't know. Obviously, Ironwood isn't going to know that Ozpin kept Qrow's whereabouts a secret, because it was secret. Of course he's going to direct his anger at Qrow. Why would he know to direct it anywhere else?
That's the reason this qualifies.
Edited by SilenceInTheLibrary
You're not working with what the show shows us, you're making a guess about what's going on inside Ozpin's head, and that's what the WMG pages are for.
Why would you? The episode showed us that both Ironwood and Ozpin wanted to know why Qrow had shown up, and that both Ironwood and Winter were telling Qrow that no-one in the room (Winter, Ironwood, Glynda, Ozpin) had contacted him because he'd gone dark, no-one knew why, so they feared he'd been compromised.
I've got no problem with you speculating that Ozpin is keeping secrets because I think he is, too. I think Ozpin knew exactly why Qrow went dark. But the episode definitely didn't show us that. It showed us the opposite, so we have to speculate that the scene was a charade designed to fool Winter, Ironwood and Glynda to support our theory, and that's what the WMG pages are for.
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Ozpin's section, the following was added to the Reasonable Authority Figure trope:
"He also realized that Team RWBY was going to the White Fang base in the southeast legally or otherwise, so bent the rules so they could go; but made sure a Beacon instructor was their chaperone."
My question is this: since he told Ironwood and Glynda that he intended to send in scouts to that area to find out what Cinder's gang is up to, isn't this more an example of him manipulating Team RWBY's mission options under the pretence of doing them a favour, to get them to do what he wants without them knowing he's manipulating them?
I'm not arguing that he's this trope overall, I'm just questioning this specific example. I interpreted that scene as him using Team RWBY as an excuse to send in a scout (Oobleck).
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I wouldn't have thought so; he could potentially send any team he wanted there (or, indeed, Ironwood might have been able to spare some drones or scouts himself) - it might even have been easier to send older students, who wouldn't need a chaperone (which RWBY would have whatever mission they were sent on) or Oobleck on his own (it's not as if the WF would ignore Beacon staff in the area for any reason). The only thing (as far as we know) that made RWBY special is that they already wanted to go.
If anything, sending RWBY would be "damage control", since they'd try to go there anyway (which he was completely up front about).
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I have been thinking that with what Wyldchyld said, that the example falls more in Genre Savvy since he is using Team Rwby because they were going to go there anyway.
I know my write ups are not the most well written, but I would reword it to this.
- Genre Savvy: He realized that Team RWBY was going to the White Fang base in the southeast legally or otherwise, since he needed someone to go there anyway he bent the rules so they could go; but made sure a Beacon instructor was their chaperone. He has also alluded that there a few secrets he does not know about; such as team RWBY's recent activities or Blake's past association with the White Fang.
Professor Ozpin entry:
Is this example confirmed by the creators? Shannon McCormick has stated in an interview
(see 13:11 onwards) that he made a creative decision to voice Ozpin as a sort-of Tyrion Lannister/Professor Dumbledore cross. However, I don't know if even that qualifies for Word of Saint Paul given that he admits his main inspiration is Tyrion.
- Expy: Of Albus Dumbledore, which to be fair is likely intentional. Both are silver-haired, glasses-wearing headmasters among an elite group of faculty, with a penchant for giving cryptic speeches and not telling the whole truth. The similarities run even deeper than that, however—both Albus Dumbledore and Ozpin have younger, bolder associates who detest their habits of secrecy and eventually retaliate to this relationship—Ironwood for Ozpin, Aberforth for Albus. Finally, both of them are eventually confronted by their higher-ups who don't like the way things are run and depose them, with the Council being a parallel to Fudge's Ministry of Magic. Whether the Council is as wrong as the parallel would imply remains to be seen.
Why does Ex Py have to be confirmed by the creators (or Saint Pauls) anyway?
MAX POWER KILL JEEEEEEEEWWWWW
You'd have to ask the mods. This site's rule is that Expy has to be confirmed by the creators and it cannot be left to fan assumption or guesswork. I have no idea if Saint Paul options are allowed.
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Point is, it DIDN'T need such approvals before...
MAX POWER KILL JEEEEEEEEWWWWW
? Expy does not have to be confirmed by creators last I checked. Even if it should.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass additions to both Professor Port and Dr. Oobleck's entries moved here for discussion.
- Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass: Initially depicted as the sort of blowhard braggart who would seem to exemplify the saying "Those who can't [do], teach," he is shortly revealed to be quite insightful into Weiss's situation, and later on shown to be mentoring a student hunter team in the field. Though he is not shown fighting directly, it is clear he has to have some level of actual abilities in that regard to be able to keep his job as an instructor.
- Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass: Oobleck's initial depiction is as an eccentric teacher, similar to Peter Port's, with the implication that he is all talk and no action. Even when he's out in the field with Team RWBY, he declines to engage the Grimms, letting them do all the work because he feels that employing his powers of observation is more important in the long run than engaging in physical combat. However, when the chips are down, he turns out to be every bit as strong a fighter as the rest.
The kids were being kids in viewing teachers as doing the kind of job kids can't respect, but nothing in their portrayal suggested the audience should think they're anything other than experienced huntsmen. Port's insightful handling of Weiss happened in his introduction episode (it was just split across two weeks) and his weapon and unleashing a Grimm on brand new first years occurred in the first half of the episode anyway. Oobleck was introduced as a verbal badass in his introductory episode, the fanbase responding accordingly.
It's only my experience, but most RWBY forums I've seen have been expecting all the teachers to be badass hunters since they're responsible for teaching the next generation to protect humanity.
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agreed. That like saying university professors with personality quirks are morons. They aren't, they just have odd personalities.
I tend to take issue with the idea that the audience isn't supposed to underestimate them. Anybody who'd ever read or watched Harry Potter would immediately draw a parallel between Port, whose class largely consists of bragging about his own past exploits and then siccing a monster on a student, and Gilderoy Lockhart, who did exactly both of those things. Plus, he doesn't exactly look the part of a seasoned monster hunter. This is why it comes as such a surprise when he turns out to be deeply insightful in exactly the way Lockhart wasn't.
And during his first appearance in the field, up until he explains himself and later pulls out the hammer, Oobleck appears to be exactly the same: all talk and no action, letting his students handle the threats just like Lockhart did.
Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass is basically in itself a subversion of the cliche of the inept hero. Setting up characters as seemingly inept to have them reveal hidden depths is in keeping with Oum's pronounced tendency to introduce commonly-used tropes and cliches with the intention of subverting them noted elsewhere in these entries.
When I saw the show for the first time last weekend, both of those things seemed very obvious to me on my first run-through. I tend to think people who don't see that may be letting their familiarity with the characters' later exploits from constant viewing blind them to how they would look to someone seeing the show for the first time.
Lockhart and Port have very little in common beyond a habit for rambling self-centred stories. Lockhart's (pre-teaching) introduction instantly revealed he was a fame-seeker willing to exploit children. Port was never introduced like that. The Cornish Pixies immediately revealed that Lockhart was incompetent, cowardly and lacking knowledge; anyone with any wide experience of literature would have instantly realised what kind of character he'd turn out to be. Port, however, unleashed a real threat into the classroom just to prove a point about what was required from a hunter, clearly knew what he was doing and wasn't running away from anything. The finale of that very same introductory episode (admittedly split across two weeks, but it was a single episode) ended with a very wise and insightful speech that completely changed Weiss's behaviour towards Ruby. That first introduction alone made it clear that Port was neither fool nor fraud.
Oobleck's entire introduction made it clear he was the 'learn from history' type character - and those characters tend to be activists, well-used to fighting for what they believe in. His passion for learning the lessons of history was obvious from the get-go. His perceptiveness was made clear by the end of the lecture - no matter how scattered he seemed as a zipped around that classroom, he could see exactly what the problems with Jaune and Cardin were and was extremely no-nonsense in addressing it. It was again obvious that he was going to be another competent, insightful teacher.
I remember fans on several forums considering the two teachers badass after their introductory episodes - they hadn't fought anything at that point. The fans have been well ahead of the characters in terms of viewing the teachers as people who shouldn't be underestimated. I queried the addition of the trope to these characters not just because their introductions don't fit the trope but because my experience of the fandom tells me very few fans viewed them as "morons" prior to them fighting. On the contrary, most discussions I've seen centred on assuming they'd be badass, wondering how they'd fight, what their combat clothing might be, whether the mounted weapon was Port's and how it worked, and what Oobleck's weapon would turn out to be.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
I'm pretty sure that the "moron" isn't meant to be how they look to the viewers, but how they look to the other characters. And Team RWBY's reaction upon discovering the huntsman they would be shadowing was Dr. Oobleck—and their reaction to having to do all the Grimm fighting themselves while Oobleck did his examining—pretty clearly demonstrated that they had a hard time regarding him as competent.
I do think it's fair to say that Port, at least, lends the impression of being all talk, given how he goes on about himself and little else. Oobleck's a bit different, mostly he comes off as hyperactive and a bit enthusiastic but more or less a common teacher. The sticky point is later, when he's revealed as the Huntsman taking team RWBY down to Mountain Glenn, and they are clearly very displeased and shocked at his presence and his antics that probably defied their expectations.
Coco's section:
- Named After Somebody Famous: Given that she's an Action Fashionista with a Bob Haircut, her name seems to reference Coco Chanel.
I did comment this out to wait for confirmation given that her name has so far only been confirmed to be confectionary related. It's been readded because someone thinks this might be a subtle reference. I frankly don't disagree with this particular interpretation, but since it is an unconfirmed interpretation, are people happy for it to stay as written?
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A builder named Bob could be a coincidence, but Coco's a rare enough name that a fashionista named Coco doesn't leave much room for doubt.
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I gave this a while to see if anyone else would add a comment. Since there's been no further response, I'm re-adding the trope to the page.
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Coco's entry:
- Staring Down Cthulhu: What should be an Alpha Beowolf, one of the older and more powerful Grimm, looking down on Coco before trying to attack her quickly gets turned around as she deflects its swipe, kicks its groin, and instead becomes the one staring down the kneeling Beowolf.
Are Beowolf the kind of threat that's eligible for a trope that deals with, given that the trope description does talk in terms of things like the Eldritch Abomination, Sealed Evil in a Can and even Ultimate Evil?
It's not like Coco was ever struggling with anything she was fighting - that's not exactly what the trope suggests to me is the situation.
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Not in my opinion. There has never been a truly threatening Beowolf in the show. If she did it to a Goliath, maybe that would fit, but not a simple beowolf
There needs to be a revamping of the trope to make it clear it's in terms of Eldritch Abomination/Sealed Evil in a Can/Ultimate Evil, then. Trope description is murky, some examples aren't even about superpowerful beings.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Some of the Cthulhu tropes are clear about it, but others aren't. I agree they could probably do with a bit of clarification in places.
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BLUH
After 'No Brakes', I am seriously tempted to add Shoot the Dog to Dr. Oobleck's write-up. Yes, I know that's not what it means, but....
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Don't add stuff you know it's misuse. It's not funny.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Yes, misusing tropes is not nearly as funny as people think.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
This is now an obsolete page and has been replaced. I have revamped the structure of the RWBY Character pages due to the Monsters and Enemies page getting too unwieldy. This has been discussed and hashed out on the RWBY Forum, please see from this post
onwards. Please note that any new tropes added to this old Character page on the 19th October 2017 may not have been captured on the replacement pages. Please check the new character pages, and readd if I've missed it.
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