Regarding the Trivia namespace (crowner switched 20th Jan 2020)

^ Agreed. I'll just mention Kensington Gore as a trivia candidate, which is an industry term for fake blood used in movie productions.

ETA: In fact, I think it might be a better idea to call the current items and move those that still need more votes either way to a new crowner. The amount of voting participants seems to have plateaud because of the current crowner's sheer size.

edited 16th Jan '16 2:14:01 PM by Morgenthaler

Added Moral Guardians as per Ask The Tropers discussion.

The crowner is already overloaded, we need to refrain from adding more to it.

I see a problem with Moral Guardians, and that is that it has legitimate use as a trope: it is common in fiction that a character runs into trouble with Moral Guardians, either because of some work they created, or because they are defending some other person's actions. In that case, it is a regular trope, and not Trivia.

The Trivia usage is when a work has been, say, banned because of complaints by moral guardians, and the outcome of the ATT discussion seems to be that that should go on the Trivia page.

But does this mean that the trope should be marked as Trivia? I suppose it hinges on whether the most common use is in-universe or not. In the former case, it's still possible to the Real Life case on the Trivia page of the banned work. Of course, even if it's marked as Trivia it can be put on the main page when it's used in-universe, so this is perhaps a rather academic discussion.

But I think it's unnecessary to mark it as Trivia, so I'm voting no for the time being. I may be persuaded to change that.

edited 21st Jan '16 9:19:05 AM by GnomeTitan

Moral Guardians can exist within the fiction of a work itself, making it In-Universe. But when it is applied to a work externally, it is trivia. These are compatible definitions, because Trivia articles, just like subjectives and audience reactions, may collect in-universe examples.

If we classify it In Universe Examples Only, however, we reject the Trivia version. It can't be both Trivia and IUEO.

edited 21st Jan '16 9:23:22 AM by Fighteer

My question is: if the trope is frequently used both in-universe and as trivia, is it necessary to mark it as Trivia?

I don't see any reason to classify Moral Guardians as IUEO, by the way, and I don't think anybody has suggested that (I realize you probably just brought that up for completeness).

edited 21st Jan '16 10:00:10 AM by GnomeTitan

Yes, because otherwise it can live as a main-page trope with its external definition. Interestingly, it was supposedly cleaned not long ago, because my sampling of the examples on the Moral Guardians article itself all appear to be in-universe.

OK, on re-reading the trope description, I see your point. It describes the Real Life phenomenon. I was mislead by the fact that it has so many in-universe examples.

I'll change my vote to vote for trivia status, then.

Moral Guardians does have non-In-Universe/Trivia examples, it's just that they are marked as "Real Life", which makes up the largest section of the page and is subdivided by media affected.

Why is Moral Guardians being proposed as Trivia? There are In-Universe examples everywhere for this trope. It dates back to Moliere, at least. And there can and should be quite a few more examples—for some reason there is no example section for Film. There must be a zillion possible Film examples, I can think of Intolerance and Footloose right off the bat, and a CTRL+F search on the "Related" page comes up with 119 hits for "Film".

Anyway, I'm gonna start culling some Film examples and make a post in the "request edit to locked pages" thread. In the meantime, there's absolutely no way this is a Trivia trope. Seems like the thing to do is make Moral Guardians NRLEP and ax the Real Life section.

edited 22nd Jan '16 7:06:22 PM by jamespolk

Agreeing with that sentiment. Real Life examples border on Flame Bait (if they aren't already).

It seems Moral Guardians is attracting some dissenting opinion here.

I think the problem is that we really have two "tropes":

1) A real work has been censored, or banned because of attacks from moral guardians, or there have at least been attempts to have it banned. As long as this discusses the facts of the ban this is trivia, because it is extrinsic to the work.

2) Somebody acts as a moral guardian, or has problems with moral guardians. This is used a lot as an in-universe trope and, as such, is of course not trivia. Real Life examples of this are (at least in principle) different from 1) because they discuss the moral guardians themselves, rather than the effect on the work, and as such tend to be flame bait.

The problem is of course separating trivia uses of 1) from real life uses of 2). Perhaps the solution would be

• Make Moral Guardians an in-universe only trope and ban real-life examples. The trope description should probably be re-written since today it seems to be mostly about Real Life moral guardians.

• Make a new Trivia trope about the effects on a real work of moral guardian actions, Banned For Moral Reasons or something like that, and try to keep it objective.

edited 22nd Jan '16 11:58:50 PM by GnomeTitan

Your solution is very sensible and easily do-able. And it's much much better than taking a trope with loads and loads of in-universe examples and making it Trivia.

Goodness, when I mentioned this trope going back to Moliere, I forgot the Pharisees in The Four Gospels. This trope is Older Than Feudalism.

I agree with decomposing Moral Guardians.

I would like to reconsider making Milestone Celebration trivia. It was called here after Crazy Samaritan proposed it on the grounds that "although many versions can recognize the celebration within the work, it isn't required for the trope." That may be true, but when the celebration is recognized within the work itself, it isn't really trivia external to the work. Nor does it seem appropriate to tag such examples as "in-universe," which, with similar tropes, would imply a Show Within a Show.

As a lot of the crowner entries are overdue, I'll call the following as trivia:

• Franchise Zombie (18 votes, 8:1)
• Genre Popularizer (15 votes, 14:1)
• Hide Your Pregnancy (32 votes, 2.2:1)
• Publisher-Chosen Title (14 votes, 13:1)
• Overtook the Manga (15 votes, 6.5:1)
• Never Work with Children or Animals (13 votes, 5.5:1)
• Follow the Leader (24 votes, 2:1)
• Making Use of the Twin (16 votes, 2.2:1)

There's still some that don't have enough votes for consensus, so if anyone hasn't voted on them yet, now's a good time.

Why is Follow the Leader trivia but Recycled IN SPACE! is not?

Only Barely Renewed, being a sister trope to Screwed by the Network, should be in Trivia already.

Should "Do It Yourself" Theme Tune be Trivia, perhaps?

Not sure. Frequently it's pretty much part of the show itself with the character singing.

There appear to be a number of articles for specific scenic shooting locations, such as Here There Be Lions, Kirk's Rock, BBC Quarry, Down L.A. Drain and Tokyo Tower. Does anyone else think these should be made trivia?

Also, shall I make a new crowner to replace the old one?

edited 26th Mar '16 1:18:58 PM by Morgenthaler

Go for it.

Made a new crowner here. I've transferred only those items from the old crowner which had fewer than 10 votes. Before swapping them, the last items with 10 or more votes from this one should probably be called as yeas or neas.

edited 27th Mar '16 7:39:52 AM by Morgenthaler

I, for one, want to wait to hook the new crowner until those aforementioned options are resolved.

Is Too Long; Didn't Dub a trivia entry or a trope?