During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Porn examples.
Messenger from another dimension.
porn examples.
I think you need to link to an image that's been uploaded with the site's Image Uploader in order to have it in a post.
Edit: If we're never going to even consider examples from torture fanfics or porn, I think we should consider just making a rule against them for this thread that we can point to when they're brought up, even if they don't break the rules of the site.
edited 30th Jul '15 2:38:01 PM by Camberf
All I'm saying is it better be one hell of an example of Plot With Porn for me to even consider it.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to a total ban on porn-without-plot and gorn-without-plot examples.
Caesar
to the majority of porn examples. I think it would just end up awkward for everyone more than anything.
Or maybe we could have an "Almost Never" list for certain types of characters- like characters from porn, characters from Torture Fics and Player Characters in videogames who won't be considered 99.9% of the time as CMs and should only be brought up under special conditions.
edited 30th Jul '15 3:03:04 PM by Camberf
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Frankly, I would suggest adding any and all Dead Baby comedies to that list, My Little Pony has a far better chance then South Park of having a CM.
I cut Khan from the Eugenics Wars page.
I got enough votes for Goth to do a write up for him:
- Silverwing: Goth is a giant cannibal bat from South America. Captured by humans, he sent to lab in a North American city for study. After escaping the lab, he begins to kill owls and birds, which General Brutus blames on the Silverwing bats, causing him to persecute them. Goth kills an Owl trying to kill Shade, a Silverwing bat. Goth pretends to be Shade's friend, saying he will protect Shade's colony, but he really plans on eating them all instead. Shade discovers Goth's true nature, when Shade discovers the corpse of a Brightwing bat Goth had eaten. Later Goth and his brother in law Throbb eat a coven of bats and took the metal bands they were wearing as trophies. When Shade and Goth are trapped in a mine, Shade suggests they work together to escape, but makes Goth promise to allow him and his friends to live, a promise Goth instantly reneges on when he is out of danger. Near the end of the series, Goth teams up with the Wolves to take over the forest and goes on a killing spree against the Owls to fulfill his part of this deal.
The write up is also here:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/Silverwing
I could also do a write up for Time Master from Freedom Force, if no one has objections.
edited 30th Jul '15 3:45:10 PM by Overlord
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
My problem with Time Master: He certainly seems bad enough and selfish enough, but is he too much of a Generic Doomsday Villain?
BTW, I may have a DOOZY this weekend, from this book. Remember Patrick Bateman? This guy's worse.
A GDV wants to destroy things for no reason that is defined by the plot, Time Master wants to destroy the universe to make himself immortal, I think that is enough motivation to make him more then a GVD.
I also don't know how many GV Ds can engage in Enemy Mine situations with their enemies when their interests are threatened, like Time Master did when he agreed to help the Freedom Force fight Entropy (though he betrayed him as soon as he could). I think Time Master has enough characterization to count.
I could do an effort post for Nuclear Winter, the communist villain of the game (he actually seems worse then Blitzkreig, the Nazi villain from the second game).
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well then, guess he has just enough.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
On the whole porn C Ms debate, I'm assuming none of you guys heard about Prison Island Break.
In all seriousness though, I feel the same way I do about Dark Fics having a CM: if there is no plot whatsoever, and it's just constant sex and raping, etc., then no, we won't even bother. But material like Prison Island Break could very easily have a CM in it (although it's doubtful due to the heinous standard), despite the sheer amount of anal raping that happens. Hell, even Oz has two C Ms in it despite the prison rapes that go on because there's an actual plot to the show.
Also I noticed that Neyla from Sly 2 Band Of Thieves isn't listed as a CM anymore. Did we ever get around to voting on her, or was she scratched?
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Neyla was discussed here to here.
Just a quick note: we have had examples that have pornography. Several of the Complete Monsters from the visual novel section are from eroges, Fate/Stay Night in particular.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@ACW: Oh, okay. Never mind about Neyla then.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
The thing about those visual novels, though? You can cut out the sex scenes and miss little.
My point is that we technically have accepted Complete Monsters from works with pornographic materials as a major selling point (and don't say that's not true for eroge visual novels).
By the way, just a personal opinion, @Septimus your last profile picture was a lot cooler since it fits way better with the "big brother" type of control you have over the thread.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
I do think there's a difference between featuring sex scenes, even rather explicit ones, and outright being porn, though.
I'm not claiming the sex isn't a big selling point for eroge, but the point remains it's different than pornography. They do have stories that stand on their own and are not intended to stimulate as a prime purpose.
My point is that, ultimately, while a work may be deemed too inappropriate to have a full page on TV tropes, it can still deserve the effort for Complete Monster discussion. We have set the precedent by allowing a Complete Monster for A Serbian Film despite it not receiving a full page due to the nature of the film. While moral or ethical arguments can be made against discussing such works, I believe it's our professional responsibility to at least look at candidates since this is a huge ongoing project.
edited 30th Jul '15 8:15:09 PM by LoreDeluxe
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
So, I'm halfway through the first season of Outlander and I think Black Jack Randall might well be a keeper.
Also, I reread Baltimore: The Curse Bells and to my surprise that I missed it the first time, the nameless Warlock is absolutely freaking Adolf Hitler.
That's exactly why I find discussing them to be questionable: there's many other works we need to discuss as well, and I'd prefer prioritizing those we actually want on the wiki.
So a while ago, examples were removed from The Boondocks. Do any of these villains qualify as Complete Monsters? I'm asking if anyone else who saw the show would agree or disagree with these:
- Complete Monster: While The Boondocks is a black comedy that rarely takes itself seriously, even when bad people are doing some really nasty things, a few villains stand out despite being simultaneously Played for Laughs:
- Ed Wuncler I. He is a corrupt, greedy, and sociopathic billionaire who not only scams people and proudly exploits child labor, he has also resorted to outright trying murder:
- He once hired Gin Rummy to assassinate a crooked kickball coach for taking bribes from Wuncler's business rival. We get to see the guy getting strangled, poisoned, and thrown off a bridge into the water, all on-screen.
- He once conspired with Ed III and Rummy to kill a random security guard with a pseudo-terrorist bombing, as part of a crazy scheme to commercialize his death. While that plan failed, Ed I manages to get away scott-free yet again, while he watches with apathy as his own grandson gets abducted at gunpoint by a rogue federal agent.
- Colonel Stinkmeaner's old partners in crime, the Hateocracy (Rufus Crabmiser, George Pistofferson, and Esmeralda Gripenasty).
- While Stinkmeaner wasn't a good person by any means, for the most part he was just a very annoying bully with an obnoxious sense of humor, and he was only a real threat in his second appearance (as an angry ghost trying to avenge his own death). But his crew take it to a whole new level...
- Crabmiser, Pistofferson, and Gripenasty really want to kill an old man and his little grandsons not for revenge (they admit to not even liking Stinkmeaner or each other), but just for the fun of it. They show how dangerous they can be by killing Bushido Brown.
- Lamilton Taeshawn seems to be an in-universe parody of a complete monster, but still a straight example. A school psychiatrist found this little boy, a cold and compassionless psychopath who really enjoys harming people, to be irredeemably evil.
- Throughout his episode, it's implied that Lamilton would probably become a future serial killer. We see him remorselessly hurting random people (even his own grandmother), while the worst thing he does is shooting a defenseless dog to death. And he does come dangerously close to murdering Riley.
- Ed Wuncler II is just as ruthless as his father, if not more so. He's a loan shark who preys upon the Freeman family, along with dozens of other bankrupt and indebted people in town. It's strongly implied that he stabbed someone to death in a fit of rage.
- And it gets worse when Ed II forces his debtors to work exactly like slaves in an amusement park (appropriately themed after the Antebellum South). After Huey repeatedly resists his enslavement, Wuncler tries to slice off his foot with an ax.
- Ed Wuncler I. He is a corrupt, greedy, and sociopathic billionaire who not only scams people and proudly exploits child labor, he has also resorted to outright trying murder:
As was discussed just a couple of pages earlier, it's not the kind of show that can have a CM due to routinely playing equally heinous actions for laughs.
Heck, the sentence at the top of those examples itself says their actions are "simultaneously played for laughs". (It's technically possible to have a Laughably Evil Complete Monster - such as many incarnations of the Joker - but it's extremely rare).
We literally just discussed those. Only Ed Wuncler II was considered to be a potential example but since everything in that show is played for laughs, (Dead Baby Comedy to be exact) no one can count.
Also I'm slowly looking through what I missed. I'd be all for Kratos counting honestly, and I didn't see any more votes for Shiz. Anyone want to vote? Go back about 6 pages and read his effort post.
Also, I just finished the latest Dawn of the Clans Warrior Cats book and as I thought, no monsters. All the villains seem to be (very dark) Well Intentioned Extremists with the exception of Snake, but we haven't seen enough of him yet.
