Pages that need the YMMV banner:

Total posts: [1,546]
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76 Killomatic5th Dec 2010 06:50:02 AM from Loli Funtime Playhouse
TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
Shouldn't the ones with examples be considered tropes?
Regulated fun - the best kind!
I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
77 Deboss5th Dec 2010 12:13:37 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
The subjective banner is for tropes.
78 Killomatic5th Dec 2010 12:33:44 PM from Loli Funtime Playhouse
TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
I'm aware of that, but as I said they don't have the Subjective banner any more, they have the Fan-speak banner, the one that says "No examples please". And this is after Fast Eddie changed the banner for Parody Sue from Fan-speak to Subjective, so I'm more than a little confused right now.

edited 5th Dec '10 12:35:19 PM by Killomatic

Regulated fun - the best kind!
I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
79 ccoa5th Dec 2010 12:38:00 PM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Wait, Parody Sue isn't subjective...
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
80 Killomatic5th Dec 2010 12:40:21 PM from Loli Funtime Playhouse
TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
Well it ain't fan-speak either. And what about the rest of the Mary Sue subtypes?
Regulated fun - the best kind!
I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
81 ccoa5th Dec 2010 12:57:09 PM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Well, technically it is fanspeak, but I don't think it needs to be example-less, since it is also a trope and not a natter magnet.

As for the others, we probably need to decide if we want to shove them on the YMMV pages or just not accept examples. My experience is that most of the Mary Sue tropes are huge natter and edit war magnets.

edited 5th Dec '10 12:58:01 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
82 Killomatic5th Dec 2010 02:03:04 PM from Loli Funtime Playhouse
TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
I was under the impression that was already decided, since they've had the YMMV banners for a while now and no one complained. They are definitely tropes in my opinion, (even if they should probably be restricted to fanfiction) and a trope with no examples is useless to us.

Anyways YMMV pages do a pretty good job of cutting down on natter and edit wars and are mostly ignored once they are created. Guess it's not so much fun arguing if nobody will see it. People adding subjectives back into work pages is another matter, but most of them learn eventually.

As for whether the trope pages themselves should have examples, I really don't care in this case, but if I ever bothered to read through more than a dozen articles, just to figure out exactly what kind of Sue a character is supposed to be, I'd probably want to keep the examples.
Regulated fun - the best kind!
I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
83 Tyoria12th Dec 2010 04:00:30 AM from Portland, Oregon
rationally insane
Shouldn't The Woobie and subpages be considered subjective? It's not just "this character suffers a lot," but "this character suffers in a way specifically pleasing to the audience". For that matter Jerkass Woobie in particular seems to have become the go-to trope for arguing the other side of Draco in Leather Pantswhy you should consider this otherwise nasty person sympathetic.
Yep, I also belive Jerk Woobie should be subjective. After all, there are many people, including me, that don't feel sorry for miko or Redcloak from Order of the Stick
85 Tyoria12th Dec 2010 04:03:59 PM from Portland, Oregon
rationally insane
Heh. Ironically enough you're talking to someone who actually does feel sorry for Redcloak. Point still stands though.
86 Ironeye12th Dec 2010 04:09:54 PM from SoCal , Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
All of The Woobie subtropes should be subjective—I'll flag the remaining ones that aren't. (Unrelated, but I also find Redcloak very sympathetic, especially after reading Start of Darkness.)
I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
87 Tyoria14th Dec 2010 08:19:42 AM from Portland, Oregon
rationally insane
I have a question about one. What about Moral Dissonance? Is this just misused a lot or is it too innately subjective to call? It definitely attracts natter — you see quite a bit of arguments that start with "X action was hypocritical because in an identical situation the character did Y" and someone will come back with "but X and Y should be considered different because of factor Z," so who's right? Or should they just be folded into one example, "it could be argued that this situation was Moral Dissonance, however, a mitigating factor is Z," except that definitely sounds subjective because it's pretty much telling people your mileage will vary depending on how much weight you, individually, give to it.

Then there's a lot of "character thinks it's better to do X than Y when clearly it is not," when many people might disagree, or is that just misusing the trope because it's not about the hero doing something you don't think is moral but must be hypocritical to their stated beliefs or in contradiction with their previous behavior?

Also, the banners on the Woobie pages went away? That's... odd.

edited 14th Dec '10 8:49:12 AM by Tyoria

moral dissonance has more to do with hero hypocrisy, not about whether or not what they did was right or wrong. For example, a Hero would have commited this if he goes out of his way to tell kids not to smoke while he himslef is a smoker. While the Hero does indeed have a sound advice no matter what, he is still a hypocrite and so commited a Moral Dissonance
89 muninn30th Dec 2010 12:40:04 PM from Somewhere, out there...
'M not Crazy, just Raven
Designated Hero and Designated Villain should probably have YMMV banners.

Can we get this topic pinned?
90 AndrewJ4th Jan 2011 07:33:54 PM from Washington, DC
That Young Knockout Kid

edited 4th Jan '11 7:34:18 PM by AndrewJ

We claim the land for the highlord, God bless the land and the hiiighlooord!
91 Killomatic7th Jan 2011 05:43:26 PM from Loli Funtime Playhouse
TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
Just bumping to say we're still waiting on those Trivia banners.

edited 7th Jan '11 5:43:39 PM by Killomatic

Regulated fun - the best kind!
I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
92 Tyoria8th Jan 2011 08:29:41 PM from Portland, Oregon
rationally insane
Plot Tumor and Romantic Plot Tumor. Oddly, Malignant Plot Tumor actually seems objective, going out of its way to note Tropes Are Not Bad and such. But Plot Tumor...

"A single plot element enjoyed by fans or writers swells in importance, crowding out everything good in its story."

Uh, yeah.
93 Tyoria9th Jan 2011 06:42:48 PM from Portland, Oregon
rationally insane
Shimaspawn, I get your edit, but I don't think it changes the whole concept of the trope from subjective to non-subjective. The name itself invokes that negativity.
94 shimaspawn9th Jan 2011 06:46:18 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
The edit needed to be made either way. It was done more for the sake of small fixes first.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Diagonalizing The Matrix
Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to
96 Ghilz14th Jan 2011 09:56:09 AM from The Moon. Or Canada. , Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Fight It Out!
The Firefly Effect needs a subjective banner. Or Audience reaction. Something.
97 Fighteer14th Jan 2011 10:28:51 AM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
[up] and [up][up] Done.

edited 14th Jan '11 10:29:48 AM by Fighteer

98 Servbot15th Jan 2011 04:49:52 PM , Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Fandom Heresy needs... something. It's Ensemble Darkhorse, The Scrappy, The Wesley, So Bad Its Horrible, So Cool It's Awesome, and all other subjective and audience reaction tropes wrapped up in a tight package of True Fan and No True Scotsman (i.e., you're not a true fan if you liked this character!)
^ Is that even something that should have a page? It sounds like nothing more than Complaining About Fans You Don't Like.
Rhymes with "Protracted."

Page Action: YMMV Banner 4
17th Aug '14 8:08:24 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
YMMV is for items that are reactions of the audience to works and tropes that need a significant judgment call to tell whether they exist objectively or not.

Should these items become members of YMMV?

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