Pages that need the YMMV banner

Shouldn't the ones with examples be considered tropes?

The subjective banner is for tropes.

I'm aware of that, but as I said they don't have the Subjective banner any more, they have the Fan-speak banner, the one that says "No examples please". And this is after Fast Eddie changed the banner for Parody Sue from Fan-speak to Subjective, so I'm more than a little confused right now.

edited 5th Dec '10 12:35:19 PM by Killomatic

Wait, Parody Sue isn't subjective...

Well it ain't fan-speak either. And what about the rest of the Mary Sue subtypes?

Well, technically it is fanspeak, but I don't think it needs to be example-less, since it is also a trope and not a natter magnet.

As for the others, we probably need to decide if we want to shove them on the YMMV pages or just not accept examples. My experience is that most of the Mary Sue tropes are huge natter and edit war magnets.

edited 5th Dec '10 12:58:01 PM by ccoa

I was under the impression that was already decided, since they've had the YMMV banners for a while now and no one complained. They are definitely tropes in my opinion, (even if they should probably be restricted to fanfiction) and a trope with no examples is useless to us.

Anyways YMMV pages do a pretty good job of cutting down on natter and edit wars and are mostly ignored once they are created. Guess it's not so much fun arguing if nobody will see it. People adding subjectives back into work pages is another matter, but most of them learn eventually.

As for whether the trope pages themselves should have examples, I really don't care in this case, but if I ever bothered to read through more than a dozen articles, just to figure out exactly what kind of Sue a character is supposed to be, I'd probably want to keep the examples.

Shouldn't The Woobie and subpages be considered subjective? It's not just "this character suffers a lot," but "this character suffers in a way specifically pleasing to the audience". For that matter Jerkass Woobie in particular seems to have become the go-to trope for arguing the other side of Draco in Leather Pants — why you should consider this otherwise nasty person sympathetic.

Yep, I also belive Jerk Woobie should be subjective. After all, there are many people, including me, that don't feel sorry for miko or Redcloak from Order of the Stick

Heh. Ironically enough you're talking to someone who actually does feel sorry for Redcloak. Point still stands though.

All of The Woobie subtropes should be subjective—I'll flag the remaining ones that aren't. (Unrelated, but I also find Redcloak very sympathetic, especially after reading Start of Darkness.)

I have a question about one. What about Moral Dissonance? Is this just misused a lot or is it too innately subjective to call? It definitely attracts natter — you see quite a bit of arguments that start with "X action was hypocritical because in an identical situation the character did Y" and someone will come back with "but X and Y should be considered different because of factor Z," so who's right? Or should they just be folded into one example, "it could be argued that this situation was Moral Dissonance, however, a mitigating factor is Z," except that definitely sounds subjective because it's pretty much telling people your mileage will vary depending on how much weight you, individually, give to it.

Then there's a lot of "character thinks it's better to do X than Y when clearly it is not," when many people might disagree, or is that just misusing the trope because it's not about the hero doing something you don't think is moral but must be hypocritical to their stated beliefs or in contradiction with their previous behavior?

Also, the banners on the Woobie pages went away? That's... odd.

edited 14th Dec '10 8:49:12 AM by Tyoria

moral dissonance has more to do with hero hypocrisy, not about whether or not what they did was right or wrong. For example, a Hero would have commited this if he goes out of his way to tell kids not to smoke while he himslef is a smoker. While the Hero does indeed have a sound advice no matter what, he is still a hypocrite and so commited a Moral Dissonance

Designated Hero and Designated Villain should probably have YMMV banners.

Can we get this topic pinned?

• Cliché Storm probably needs a YMMV banner.

edited 4th Jan '11 7:34:18 PM by AndrewJ

Just bumping to say we're still waiting on those Trivia banners.

edited 7th Jan '11 5:43:39 PM by Killomatic

Plot Tumor and Romantic Plot Tumor. Oddly, Malignant Plot Tumor actually seems objective, going out of its way to note Tropes Are Not Bad and such. But Plot Tumor...

"A single plot element enjoyed by fans or writers swells in importance, crowding out everything good in its story."

Uh, yeah.

Shimaspawn, I get your edit, but I don't think it changes the whole concept of the trope from subjective to non-subjective. The name itself invokes that negativity.

The edit needed to be made either way. It was done more for the sake of small fixes first.

Shipping Bed Death is an Audience Reaction.

The Firefly Effect needs a subjective banner. Or Audience reaction. Something.

and Done.

edited 14th Jan '11 10:29:48 AM by Fighteer

Fandom Heresy needs... something. It's Ensemble Dark Horse, The Scrappy, The Wesley, So Bad Its Horrible, So Cool Its Awesome, and all other subjective and audience reaction tropes wrapped up in a tight package of True Fan and No True Scotsman (i.e., you're not a true fan if you liked this character!)

^ Is that even something that should have a page? It sounds like nothing more than Complaining About Fans You Don't Like.

What Do You Mean, It's for Kids? and What Do You Mean, It's Not for Kids? are audience reactions.