Superhero Concept -- How good are these names?

I'm just against needlessly changing the race to appease someone, when someone else will complain, that is all. I conceptualized him as being white, and that's just how it is. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. The point I was trying to make is: "People are complaining about diversity in a story that is a melting pot featuring a wide array of different backgrounds". It makes me think they're only focusing on one character instead of looking at the whole cast.

Also, it's not about meeting a quota. I legitimately wanted a wide variety of diverse and unique characters from different backgrounds because it makes things more interesting. Incarnate represents "the white anime fan from a big melting pot city" subset, as there are many people in real life that are like that. I just thought it was weird to complain about diversity in a story that's already extremely diverse, so I was pointing that out.

Anyways, I'll answer your questions later when I have more time. I don't want to focus too much on race though, because that wasn't my intention. I didn't want to be like "Look how diverse the characters are!" as much as I wanted to say "Heroes come in all forms".

I get what you're going for, I'm just asking you to avoid making these statements:

These statements make you come across as ignorant of why people care about diversity, and I'm fairly certain you meant no malice. But I would avoid making such sentences because having a lot of diversity doesn't shield you from criticism on how you handle your "diverse" characters. Don't bring up "I have a lot of diversity!" as an excuse. Address the criticism toward a particular character in a thoughtful and mature manner, so that you get a better understanding of what people have concerns with. You can't please everybody, but at least you can come out of the situation more informed than ever.

yes, indeed. My characters are diverse but that doesn't automatically mean it's free from criticism. Most people don't care about how diverse your story is. If you mess up on writing characters, people will point that out. That's why using some diversity shield won't save you from being free from complaints. If you really don't want to come off as ignorant or worse a unknowing bigot, try some more perspectives from various backgrounds. Then maybe people wouldn't make a big deal about.

And come to think of it, you do remind me of myself (but with better grammar on your part). I've ended up in situations where I was accused of being ignorant because of my lack of understanding of the culture I was trying to represent.

You're completely ignoring the power dynamic between Western/white culture versus ethnic/non-white culture, especially in 'Murika. NOBODY asks what reason a non-white person plays the violin or does Western art forms. They assume we just like it because in America, Western culture is the norm. Meanwhile, if a non-white person does NON-white things, people will assume that 1) the person is mixed or has a lot of friends within that culture, if it's not part of their own, or b) if it's part of their own culture, they must be very "traditional/proud/non-assimilated."

I would LIKE for people to not care if a non-Japanese person does manga and assume that they just like it, but that's not my experience even WITHIN an extremely diverse area, and that's not the experience for many other regions of the US.

Your statement sounds like "If minorities get mad about white people wearing Native headdresses or doing hip-hop, why are minorities wearing jeans and eating Burger King?" Because minorities use Western culture (consciously or not) to show we're "normal." Western culture is "normal" in America, and ethnic culture is "not normal."

not normal? I've been so used to other cultures for years that I've considered them natural on my part. and didn't we semi-ended this? ok back on topic, I am well aware of the culture cringe syndrome that's having a major impact in our "western" society and aware of "non-ethnic" people bastardizing other people's cultures. but am I angry when someone steals my culture? unless that don't even know what they're doing then yes, I will be very pissed. but due to the fact that some white guy he made (incarnate I believe) doesn't seem to cause me this beasty little feeling, I feel unaffected. he could became a mighty whitety if he's more powerful than any minority character , then yes, I'd be pissed.

but, changing his race won't be that bad of an idea on my part. I do it all the time with my characters. did you know that ellen was once white? well now she's ambiguously brown (since I have yet to find any info on whether there were people of color in medieval Europe). the reason behind it was I had an idea for a spin-off about her adventures in the jungle like a forest with her wild friends. then I realized the whole trope about the usual jungle white girl trope and scrapped it. I honestly never heard of a story about a black kid wanting to become a mangaka. it's not only relatable, it gets rid of the preconceptions what it means to act black. I would pay a flip ton of money for that. so lazer, before you say it's political correctness (which I also hate myself), it's at least saving you the trouble of being accused of being a racist, which you aren't.

I never would've thought that Incarnate would've been such a source for argument. It's starting to get a little out of hand. I'm going to post more characters soon to get this back on track.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with George Parker aka Incarnate being "white". Discrimination is a crappy thing no sane person would support, but it isn't hard to understand why George would probably upset people- It is always upsetting to see something close to you be done wrong.

However, in reality literally any combination can happen when it comes to who a person is- And ultimately a good story is treated just like reality: Incredibly versatile and unpredictable. So let's stop seeing this as fiction, and acknowledge how the real life George Parker would be treated.

In real life it would be completely dickish to screech Stop Being Stereotypical at someone- And an actual "white guy" who is inspired by manga wouldn't at all be amused by this condemnation of George Parker's character.

It pisses me off too seeing people intentionally or not offend my heritage- The Germans are not a bunch of maniacs, and seeing people say it is impossible to be German and Jewish is extremely upsetting.

But that's just how people are- Some of them don't understand, and there's no point in convincing those who don't want to be convinced.

@Ultimate Lazer: George Parker honestly doesn't deserve all this arguing, and there's nothing wrong with being "white". If you honestly have to do something, then make him like me- A ridiculous melting pot of ethnicities, French/German/Jewish/Irish/Cherokee/Haitian/Cajun and inexplicably mistaken as Latino by even actual people of Latino descent.

I just really had to explain there's nothing wrong with George Parker's ethnicity and interests, I'll make a response for your new heroes once you post them.

aw thank god. i'll shut my mouth mow.

Just to get this back on track.

Heroes

• Amazon / Zeena Steyn — 34-year-old model from South Africa who is openly lesbian. At 6'2" without heels, she's not exactly lacking in the height department. She's also in a relationship with the Chinese-Japanese-American hero Wingspan / Madison Mei Miyamoto, who is fifteen years her junior. Some think it's rather weird, but mainly because she's so much older than her. Amazon has the ability to turn herself into a 7'2" blue-skinned, red-haired, super strong amazonian-like warrior with Super-Senses and the ability to shoot Eye Beams. As you can expect, she's often a direct damage dealer who will charge into battle for sake of protecting the innocent. Since she gained her abilities, she's joined up with the Protectors and now operates all over the world, with frequent US visits to see her girlfriend.
• Wingspan / Madison Mei Miyamoto — 19-year-old scientist/hero who originally hailed from Oakland to a Japanese father and Chinese mother. Now she is based in Manhattan, found in the Protectors Tower when not on duty. She's not the tallest around, being only 5'4", but isn't to be underestimated. She's in a relationship with the South African hero Amazon / Zeena Steyn, who is fifteen years her senior. For the record, she is not a lesbian. She is bisexual. Wingspan technically has no powers apart from being very intelligent, but was smart enough to build her own flight suit with avian-like features, including wings (hence the name), that allows her to take to the skies. Wingspan carries dual machine pistols and some fast-action bombs that sticks to their target. As a result, she's less of a direct fighter and more of a hit-and-runner. Additionally, she possesses a drone which helps scout an area or provide cover fire. When not on duty, she's often tinkering with technology. An addition to her intergenerational relationship with Zeena, she has an Intergenerational Friendship with Quinton Quoidbach / Cobalt, both being highly-intelligent people in the organization.

Villains

• Riot / #177 — A man of unknown origins, being that he was kidnapped at his youth and raised in a lab by an unknown organization. His memories were wiped, and he was given a mere number as an identifier. After years of grueling tests, he gained the ability to utilize his bones and blood as his power. Eventually, he overpowered his captors and escaped from the lab. With nowhere to go, he was eventually found by the terrorist organization Mist, who came with benevolence. He could serve as one of their members, and they will give him a home and a place where he belongs. He accepted. From there, he took the name "Riot" because it describes his nature. He's one-man riot, causing destruction and death wherever he goes.

meh

I would also avoid saying things like this. Such phrasings might make people think you're trying to brush away and dismiss criticism.

The thing with Incarnate is this: the Mighty Whitey trope will be a baggage Incarnate carries due to the trope's sordid history, whether you like it or not. If you want Incarnate to be a white guy, by all means, keep him white. But be prepared to face criticism for that decision, especially if you don't handle him correctly and really set off the Mighty Whitey alarm bells.

My last suggestion to you on the whole "Mighty Whitey Incarnate" bit is this: use the fact that he's a white guy drawing manga as a way to flesh out his character, and not in a "people made fun of him for being a weeaboo" way. Consider the following:

• Maybe a particular manga really resonated with him and made him try imitating its artstyle. Consider what other things he might've gotten from the story. Maybe the manga had an uplifting central message that helped him get through a tough part of his life? When people ask him why he, a white guy, is drawing art Japanese-style, he can share this particular story with them and let both other characters and readers know how he became the way he is.
• Someone he admires a lot drew manga-style, and that person inspired him to try drawing manga as well. Think about what sort of influence this individual might've had on Incarnate.
• Think really hard about what "being made fun of for being a weeaboo" adds to his character. In fact, I would even go so far as to suggest that if you cannot find a way to really explore this aspect of his character and are using it only for pity points, take it out completely. This way, you can focus more on how him taking up manga helped him grow as a character.
• If you have to keep him being made fun of for drawing manga, think of the people who made fun of him. What sort of people are they? Random strangers? His friends? What sort of people would have the most profound effect on him? This is where you need to watch out for a Mighty Whitey pitfall: DO NOT go the "Asians make fun of him for being a white guy that draws manga because they're secretly jealous he's better than them at drawing." While such a thing might actually happen in real life, in stories, it comes across as "See, the white man is better than those idiot minorities," so make sure you avoid that.

Also watch out for the following pitfalls:

• Do not go over the top when showing him being made fun of for his hobbies. Go to far, and people might not be as affected since it would look like Incarnate is being made fun of by caricatures instead of actual people.
• Do not try to paint the thing as a "white guy gets oppressed by minorities" story. It didn't work in Save the Pearls, and I doubt it would work in this story. I'm not saying that's what you're doing with this character, I'm saying it's a serious pitfall you need to watch out for.

Kkutwar: Commenting on stereotypes happens a lot with minorities where I live, but we're not screaming or demanding that they Stop Being Stereotypical—it's more a combination of having N-Word Privileges and being a self-deprecating way to cope with things. I make lots of jokes about how I'm tiny and still mistaken for a teenager in my mid-twenties, which is especially common among Asian women. My Latino friends often joke about going into chola/cholo mode. And so on for different ethnicities. It would be well within reality for a minority to joke/snark/sigh "yayyyyyy, we got a katana-wielding ninja. Victory is sealed."

As for Riot, does he have a Healing Factor to bypass the whole "missing pieces of bone" problem that would occur in everyday life? Also, how does he even USE his bones as weapons? I'm just imagining a Body Horror "break my own leg to get the femur out" kind of thing.

Can we move on now? This Incarnate thing has gone on too long and I'd like to focus on the present.

Yes, he has a Healing Factor as a Required Secondary Power otherwise it wouldn't work. He can regenerate missing bones very fast, and even breaking them would only slow him down for a bit. Riot draws bones from his skin, which can shaped them in any form, and he can harden them to the point of being as strong as titanium. Similarly, he can utilize his blood in a similar fashion.

@Sharyse: It just really bothers me whenever I get the impression people think being "white" is wrong- Saying "white" in and of itself explains nothing, as a good number of races have light skintones. Honestly, as George Parker/Incarnate is American, he's likely multiracial anyways: Most likely he just adheres to the general vague American culture or posseses his own personal code, his parents not having introduced him to his heritage (like mine didn't).

I won't deny a part of my motivation here is because I'm a "white" guy who's strongly inspired by anime & manga- They were some of the very first stuff I witnessed (like Sailor Moon) and that the subbed Cardcaptor Sakura is the very first show I had truly watched, whilst others like Fullmetal Alchemist or Puella Magi Madoka Magica kickstarted my imagination down certain paths.

I don't see stereotypes or cliches as something to avoid like the plague- Cliches only become cliches because they're regularly used, whilst stereotypes are often potential character traits. They're worth Playing With and being used in a better & more creative way- Treat the characters like the people they are and not as puppets dancing to your will.

I would fully support having someone In-Universe point out how George could be considered a Mighty Whitey- Preferably an Anti-Hero or Villain. However I mainly support that because it be True Realism to find someone who would say that, and doing so would help establish the other character as a person.

It is alright being offended or worried, but that shouldn't hold someone back: It helps a lot figuring out how something is meant to work the way it does. For example, there's no point to crying "the adaptation got it wrong"- The adaptation is a different universe, of course things would be different.

Basically, I get that you're worried that George would be offensive and are just trying to help. However instead of saying "this doesn't work", offering suggestions on how to make it work would be valuable- And I'm not saying "change his race/inspiration", but rather "why is he like this?"

I want equality and peace for everyone, but so long as Ultimate Lazer treats George Parker like the person he is there shouldn't be any problems. If people are still offended that's their right, and there will always be someone who is offended- Nothing can be perfect, as everyone believes their own idea of perfection.

@Ultimate Lazer: So Zeena is effectively She-Hulk Supergirl huh? But seriously though, that's a pretty tried & true set of abilities, so I take it her characterization is what really matters here. I can respect the classical Hero of Justice, but I don't think you gave us enough of her characterization.

Basically, all I'm getting here is "She's an up-close-and-personal protector of the innocent" with her sexuality & ethnicity being completely incidental to that. It would really help if you explained how specifically her powers have shaped her personality- She has eye beams yet prefers close combat for example, so is that a power she doesn't use as much and if so why? Range limit, no Required Secondary Powers making it unreliable/dangerous, or does she enjoy the thrill of physically performing her heroics instead of merely glaring problems away?

Likewise, what about Madison? What possessed her to be a mechanical birdgirl over any other creature? Why make a flight suit and not something more defensive? She's a genius so nothing actually limits her from giving her suit new features or possessing more gadget variety- Yet she's still Wingspan and not "Unstoppable Justice Engine".

It would also really help if you explained what their relationship is like and why they're together- Does the age difference complicate things, had they known each before becoming a couple, does Madison's potential bouts of jealousy unintentionally target both genders despite knowing Zeena's sexuality, etc.

Regarding Riot, Mist approached him under the cover of benevolence and spent all the life he remembered being a thing- Thus is he an Anti-Villain that sees the organisation as heroes and family? Is he a gleeful Blood Knight who revels in chaos and violence? Does he see himself as unkillable because of his Healing Factor, or does he acknowledge his possible mortality?

You're ultimately just giving us a basic summary of these characters, so we can't offer too much input- Without all the pieces a puzzle just looks weird. Though for the names themselves, Wingspan is fitting for a technological flier & Riot describes his combat role and potential well. Really Amazon is just the odd one out, unless she's a Greek buff or something- Even then I would never associate the amazons with eye beams.

I suppose the thing is that I have a hard time seeing actual skills or artforms (in most cases) as being culturally specific. If I saw a white guy in Native American regalia I'd call that cultural appropriation, sure. But if I see a non-European playing the piano, I don't think anything of it. I understand about ethnic power differentials, but I'd equate an Asian person getting upset that a white guy was exceptionally skilled at kung-fu with a white person getting upset that a black person was skilled at chess. Regardless of the ethnic power differential, it strikes me as small minded in anyone and not something that should be indulged.

Sorry, though. Felt the need to clarify. I expect Ultimate Lazer is tired of the thread getting derailed, so I'll say no more on the subject.

It was getting tiresome last page. I would like to focus on the present, thanks.

I wouldn't quite say the Supergirl is quite applicable for Zeena, because she can't fly (though, for obvious reasons, she can jump very high and/or far). She doesn't use her eye beams as much as her super strength because they can be extremely dangerous and require heavy concentration, which can end up hurting (or worse, killing) innocents caught in the crossfire.

As for Madison, she was a genius by the time she was barely in her teens. Similar to Ezekiel, she was inducted into the Manhattan-based academy Monolith, a school dedicated to finding the cream of the crop and then giving them the ability to build things without monetary restrictions. During her time, she built herself a wingsuit because she dreamed of being able to take to the skies. Also, she is prepared. Any situation she's in, she'll make modifications to her suit to better combat her enemy. Outside of that, she's always tinkering with gadgets to seeing what she can do.

As for their relationship, they are happily dating, but as mentioned the age difference is seen as weird by some. It's not that Madison prefers older women or anything, they just happened to meet and they hit it off quick. I intentionally made them contrast each other for effect. Zeena is tall, very sexually confident, outgoing, and prefers direct combat. Madison is short, more modest, reserved, and uses her wits and gear to come out on top.

Riot was treated as a monster, so he became a monster. Mist offered him a home, because they had uses for their abilities. They have a funny way of getting people on their side. Many join them willingly, but if you don't join them willingly, they have other options at their disposal (just ask B. Hood). With Riot however, it's not that simple. He's a very dangerous individual, which makes the kidnapping/brainwashing process a costly proposition, so instead of brainwashing him they decided to appeal to his inner desires to be accepted.

Basically, Mist is the Evil Counterpart to the Protectors, having access to much of the same technology and having dangerous people, both powered and unpowered, among their ranks.

Sorry if the details are kind of hazy, I'm trying not to give too much away, but I think it'll come together when I start posting the story online.

Can't all this talk about Incarnate be avoided just by not having him be chosen, instead just stumbling on it? Like Death Note, have any arbitrary rules that comes with being "chosen" just be part of the rules the MacGuffin follows, like only the first one who draws in it can use it. If it was truly random, than no stereotypes can exist because literally anyone can possess it.

genius

Can we please stop talking about Incarnate for now? I'd like to focus on the current.

edited 11th Dec '16 9:51:06 PM by UltimateLazer

@Ultimate Lazer: Sorry about that, I just really had to give my piece on the subject. Anyways, I understand not wanting to spoil anything & I would love to know where to find this once it begins. However every detail behind a character helps define them- So if you share the random triva or stuff you know isn't spoilers, we can find answers better that way.

Back to Riot- Is he a Reluctant Psycho who doesn't believe he deserves better? Has he Became Their Own Antithesis, becoming just like the monsters who tortured him? Knowing his precise nature here would help.

Regarding Zeena, did she learn that the hard way or was she properly cautious enough to discover so safely? Though what's the exact reasoning for her codename- You would think Amazon would be a name many other Super-Strength women would take.

How good is Madison at tailoring her suit for each scenario? Would she have "insta-rust" readied for fighting Steel Demon, or are we talking the more general aspects alone? Are there fields she's weak in, thus situations she just couldn't adapt well for? I always found it weird characters (science-based ones especially) never intentionally expand their arsenal- Thus what mods are permanent, and does she loot villain tech?

He would still be a white kid who "happened" to be drawing manga and gets bullied for being a weeaboo, but yeah—taking away the mysterious note that tells him he's literally selected as (one of the) Chosen would DEFINITELY lessen the Mighty Whitey undertones.

Plus, it's a lot more modern in the superhero genre. Classical superheroes are "The Chosen One or one of The Chosen Many" and it's a pretty dated way to "become" a superhero, but more modern heroes just get bitten by spiders, volunteer for experiments, or are randomly born with mutant powers. If Incarnate just found a magical artbook one day—lack of previous use would easily be put down to "it went through a couple of owners who just didn't have the motivation to draw."

Now that I've read "Zeena" a few times, I can't avoid hearing "Xena Warrior Princess" in my head. Just had to get that out.

Also, I would be VERY much for Madison looting her enemies' stuff for practicality. Even if her school could pay for certain things, stipends or school-applicable things can only go so far. I don't think she could handle a job, superhero dealings, AND school, or she'd be running herself as ragged as Spider Man during his high-school days. Plus, he probably spends enough time repairing a cloth bodysuit. A metal wing-suit with lots of moving bits and wires? EVEN MORE TIME.

Hell, looting her enemies or taking whatever they left/dropped after a battle would probably be the REASON she's Crazy-Prepared for everything. "Ayyyyy, are these tranquilizer darts? If they're not, I could just PUT tranqs in them."

edited 11th Dec '16 11:07:38 PM by Sharysa

Riot's mentality is complicated. He has quite the sadistic streak and takes pleasure in enacting his "vengeance" on the people who caused him so much harm. At the same time, he views this as a service to Mist, who gave him a home and a use for his abilities. There are some bits of humanity that show up here and there, but these tend to be infrequent.

Yeah, Zeena had to discovered that blasting heat vision into an area tends to have disastrous consequences. That's why she reserves its use when she knows that no one will get harmed. I came up with Amazon because she's already tall and strong, and her special form makes her into a seven-foot tall warrior. Admittedly, I was kind of short on names so that's why I came up with it.

Yeah, Madison will prepare for a scenario and makes sure she has the best ways to win. Each operation she packs different gadgets to assist her, depending on the situation, because she's Genre Savvy enough to avoid Crippling Overspecialization. It makes things quite interesting to say the least. Also, yeah she does loot stuff from villains, which she then takes apart, examines, and possibly uses for her personal advantage.

Actually, I pictured Madison as being out of school and now working for the Protectors as her full-time job. I couldn't imagine her juggling the two. She has an apartment in New York, but spends most of her time in the Tower when she doesn't take up crime-fighting/operations. Being a Protector means being very well-paid, so money isn't an issue there.

If you're not satisfied with "Amazon," you might call her "Atalanta," which would get the same idea across. Or possibly "Suprema" (which is what William Moulton Marston originally wanted to call Wonder Woman).