Duplicate Trope: Inside A Computer System

These tropes came up in an Image Pickin' discussion a while back where we had a hard time figuring out what the difference between the two tropes was and decided to shelve it until that could be resolved. Inside a Computer System and Cyberspace overlap to the point where it seems to me like either is just The Same But More Specific of the other. Both tropes predate the YKTTW system, so seem to have been added without considering whether we already had this.

Inside a Computer System is described as:

Cyberspace is described as:

The relation/contrast between the two tropes is completely absent from the Cyberspace article. Inside a Computer System does try to establish one:

That seems like a really arbitrary way to distinguish the two tropes, especially since nothing in the description for Cyberspace limits it to open system, and Inside a Computer System does list numerous examples of multiple characters accessing the virtual reality.

Seems like an old distinction. I prefer the name Cyberspace because to me Inside a Computer System sounds like the plot where people get shrunk down really itty bitty and are running around inside a machine sabotaging it.

Yeah, seems like pretty much the same trope. I'd merge them under Cyberspace, with a note in the description that it can be either an isolated system (like Tron) or an enormous worldwide network (like Ghost in the Shell).

"Inside a Computer System" sounds like its referring to the hardware itself, as opposed to the network, but the description doesn't support that. Probably merge into Cyberspace.

Is there a trope for running around in the hardware? I know I've seen it. Ant-Man does it all the time.

Star Trek Deep Space Nine episode One Little Ship did it too.

They even questioned the fridge logic of The Air Not There breathing when shrunk that small, via beaming a pocket of shrunk air before beaming into the computer system.

And even the fact that there are electric currents going around a computer

A trope for this is not listed in the Star Trek Deep Space Nine S 06 E 14 One Little Ship recap

edited 26th May '16 9:18:30 AM by Memers

Could we repurpose Inside A Computer System for that trope?

I didn't see Inside a Computer System as just being shrunk in the hardware, but I'm not really familiar with that sort of plot.

I feel like there might be a reason for both of these as they are, but I'm not sure how to articulate it.

Inside a Computer System makes me think of things like TRON or Overdrawn at the Memory Bank. Both of these are stories that largely take place within a simulated world inside a computer, but with different ways of portraying that.

Cyberspace makes me think more of a cyberpunk universe where the simulated computer world is part of the setting more than just an excuse for the plot, if you know what I mean. Like I said, I feel like there's a distinction, but I'm not sure how to articulate it.

edited 26th May '16 12:18:51 PM by Jokubas

There really isn't much of a distinction between the two. I mean Tron and say the Cyberspace Eden in Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth are pretty much exactly the same aside from Tron being one computer and Eden being many computers.

Digimon as a whole is that. It occurs a few times in Avengers A.I. as well.

But yeah, the tropes are too similar. Can we put a crowner on the merge proposal?

I see them as, in theory, pretty distinct. Being in a network and being in one computer are pretty large differences.

Being inside a computer generally means you're confined and it's more of a unique setting piece than anything else.

Being in a network carries a suggestion of freedom and infinite possibilities.

They can overlap, of course, but they carry very different connotations.

I'm not sure on this. There is a distinction between this and cyberspace I think. But I'm inclined to say they're "close enough" in usage. Right now, this trope seems to lean towards VR/Holodeck type systems rather than digitization or such. The description uses the term "plugging in" rather than terms which would suggest the digital place is an actual place. The virtual world is known to be virtual. I noticed we don't have a general trope for virtual reality/holodeck/simulations. I feel like that's what this trope is trying to be. Honestly, I think it's "close enough" to create a subheading under cyberspace, but the lines are blurry.

edited 1st Jun '16 2:01:29 PM by pokedude10

I don't see a noticeable difference. A computer is a computer is a computer. Adding a network connection doesn't make it appreciably different. In most Cyberspace depictions the audience wouldn't even know if the system is one machine or a network unless someone says it out loud. The characters might not even know themselves.

But there is a potentially huge difference between virtual reality operated with VR goggles or "plugging in" and a kind of Magical Land you enter physically with the computer as a portal. Especially in cases like Digimon where the beings of the "virtual" world can cross back into the "real" one just as easily. That would be worth a separate trope.

In Digimon they treat the 'Digital World' and Cyberspace as something completely different. The Digital World is another fantasy world that follows different rules similar to Kono Suba, Cyberspace is just connected to it. Cyberspace is actual cyberspace and a typical representation of it. Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth is the same way, the digital world and EDEN are different but can be connected.

The only thing that is typically different between computers like say Tron and Reboot and Cyberspace like Digimon is you typically fly inside representations of cables in cyberspace when connecting to different servers and computers.

Also don't forget The Metaverse also exists.

Now being shrunk down and walking inside a giant computer where you can see processors and such from a different view is different.

edited 2nd Jun '16 11:40:58 AM by Memers

Honestly, I think that distinction works. Inside a Computer System is Virtual reality / Virtualization / Uploaded Consciousnesses / Holodeck, etc. It can refer to the connection or the location. Cyber Space however is an actual world that is separate, but just as "real" as the "real world."

One example I might think of is Sword Art Online (which I'm not too familiar with). Playing the game as an immersive VR would be Inside a Computer System. But once the players become "trapped," the game world is effectively another world/location, thus may become Cyber Space.

edited 2nd Jun '16 9:16:40 PM by pokedude10

That isn't inside a computer system though it's Trapped In A Video Game or Trapped In A Virtual World which is currently covered by Trapped in TV Land according to the Trapped in Another World page but that might not be correct.

Virtual Reality is currently pointed at Cyberspace and while a Virtual Reality or VR Game might be more distinct from than seeing representations of moving through cables and such in Cyberspace ala the Digimon movie or Tek War, it should not have the Inside a Computer System name at all.

Inside a Computer System should be literal. Either walking around inside a computer to where processors look like mountains ala Star Trek DS 9 or life inside a computer's active ram where programs are people like Tron or Reboot.

On the same vein Sword Art Online is part of the Isekai Genre of light novels where the MC is Trapped in Another World of some type and always gains RPG like powers, not always a Virtual World though but most of the time it is. Is that distinct enough for its own page?

edited 3rd Jun '16 11:32:00 AM by Memers

Can't we go by the distinction provided on Inside a Computer System ^note "Although there is some overlap between the two concepts, this differs from Cyberspace in that when you're Inside a Computer System, it may be completely self-contained and have no connection to the outside world." and sort examples accordingly?

edited 3rd Jun '16 12:18:22 PM by eroock

With everything being online it is not a real distinction. Also the title does not fit that and invites misuse from being actually inside a computer, both versions.

edited 3rd Jun '16 12:30:34 PM by Memers

There is a related trope Myself, My Avatar, that makes my point clearer. A character who physically remains in our world while a representation is up in the virtual reality. That's what I believe Cyberspace is about. In Inside a Computer System. the user himself, in miniatured form, enters the hardware. Regardless if online or not, there is only one instance of that character in existence.

So regarding the related tropes we have found and the arguments for/against them, it sure looks like we're dealing with a lot of redundancy here. To fix this, I think we should reorganize the pages like this:

• Inside a Computer System: redefine the trope to "character is miniturized and goes inside computer hardware" (if we can find enough examples of course).
• The Metaverse: A simulation where people interact with each other in a 3D environment.
• Virtual Reality: Currently a redirect to Cyberspace, but I think this should be the Super-Trope to The Metaverse. I'm thinking of simulations like the Star Trek holodecks.
• Another Dimension: This is when the "digital world" is an entirely seperate dimension, essentially a modernized Fantasy Land.
• Trapped in TV Land: Specifically, the Internal Subtrope of "we're trapped inside a videogame".

Tropes I think should be cut/split:

• Cyberspace: Looking at all these related tropes more thoroughly, I'm more and more convinced that "cyberspace" is basically an amalgam of several different ones. Either make it a redirect to The Metaverse, or vice versa.
• Myself, My Avatar: Basically a duplicate of the other tropes listed here, no YKTTW archive either. Cut/merge with The Metaverse or Cyberspace.

edited 16th Jun '16 7:05:40 AM by Morgenthaler

IMO Trapped In A Video Game should probably be split off from this trope, Cyberspace and Trapped in TV Land. It typically follows different rules like possibly RPG Episode rules, death is cheap if you have an Extra Life, Welcome to Corneria and such. And it doesn't follow the typical TV Land rules.

Myself, My Avatar could use a revamp to make it clear you are your avatar in every way, look height the works. Possibly with damage feedback to cause injuries to your real body.

Not every game does this and Cross Player is a thing.

edited 16th Jun '16 7:54:42 AM by Memers

I would say that the supertrope is Cyberspace.

It has subtropes Virtual Reality, where a person jacks in, The Metaverse, which is the internet, but you walk instead of mousing, and either (Inside a Computer System or Trapped in TV Land), where the person is somehow physically placed in cyberspace.

I don't think that shrunk down and walking on a motherboard is tropable. In the event that the virtual world is another world outside our own, as opposed to inside our own, this is actually Another Dimension masquerading as Cyberspace.

As to the distinction between a computer and a computer network, I don't think there is any. Not at least in a way useful to us.

What about stories about things that live inside computers, like 3 in Three?

I consider a physical motherboard style location to be a standard video game setting, although I can't find a trope that matches that. It is mostly used in puzzle games.

I also think Extreme Graphical Representation is a subtrope of Cyberspace, one that involves visualisation, but not travel within the space.

I think the game you listed above is a generic example of cyberspace, since it does not (a) hypothesise a world outside of our own, (b) has nothing to do with the internet and (c) does not involve 'Jacking in', or any other type of particularly good VR helmet.

edited 17th Jun '16 9:53:37 AM by war877

I think this trope and Cyberspace both have an inherent aspect of Another Dimension. They both have the implications of being another world separate from reality. This is similar to a Mouse World or a mental world. While a mouse world is technically set in reality, it is presented as a different realm because of perspective and scale. A mental world would be similar. Even though they usually occur within a person's psyche, they're treated as a different setting than the real world.

To connect with this trope, saying people must physically be jumping around chips and such narrows it too far. A mental world doesn't require people to be jumping around neurons and synapses. Likewise a trope should be flexible enough to allow multiple interpretations. For this trope, people can jump around in the circuits, use vr to see representations of the computer, or in the case of TRON, somehow be virtualized as data.