Supertrope/subtrope example sorting:

Total posts: [22]
1 Fighteer2nd Sep 2012 08:14:04 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
When you are listing examples that fall under a highly organized supertrope, such as Five-Man Band or Competitive Balance, the proper way to sort the examples is in alphabetical order, not by listing the supertrope and then the subtropes indented beneath them.

I just asked Fast Eddie to confirm this and he did, so now I'm going to bring this up as a Special Efforts project. Not because we need more projects, but putting it here has a twofold purpose.

  1. To remind people of the proper way to sort examples.
  2. To establish a structure for cleaning it up and keeping it clean.

I see this a lot on Characters pages, such as Pokémon Anime - Original Series, and I just had to suspend someone for reverting my previous edit to the article. It's also not the only improper example on that article.

As a reminder, the following is incorrect:

The following is correct:

So, in standard Special Efforts format, let's list articles that need cleanup and/or have been cleaned. Also let's make note of tropers that revert changes we make so that they can be addressed appropriately.

edited 2nd Sep '12 8:47:24 PM by Fighteer

2 DragonQuestZ2nd Sep 2012 11:02:56 PM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
Would that also apply to listing a super trope and its sub tropes on indexes?

edited 2nd Sep '12 11:03:22 PM by DragonQuestZ

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3 nrjxll3rd Sep 2012 01:00:51 AM , Relationship Status: Not war
I have to ask, why is this necessary? The way people have been doing it seems to make more sense for most of these tropes.
4 Xtifr3rd Sep 2012 01:18:14 AM , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
I suspect the reason is so that tropes always appear in their correct alphabetical position and you don't end up with duplicates, and, if it turns out that, say, Five-Man Band has been shoe-horned in (as it so often is), you don't have to rearrange all the subtropes when you pull FMB.

But that's just a guess. Aesthetically, I like the nested version, but not enough to complain if we stop doing that.
"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
5 nrjxll3rd Sep 2012 01:19:48 AM , Relationship Status: Not war
Actually, that reminds me - is it even possible to have the Five-Man Band tropes without an actual Five-Man Band? That's never been clear, and recent changes have only made it more confusing.
In uffish thought
[up]Yep. There can be all the character tropes, but if they never work as a team then it isn't a Five-Man Band.
7 Fighteer3rd Sep 2012 05:10:53 AM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
@DQZ: I'm mainly concerned with the sorting on work articles. Subtrope-supertrope on indexes is a relatively minor issue, unless it's observed that it's inspiring people to do it the wrong way on work pages.
8 Xtifr3rd Sep 2012 12:19:41 PM , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
On work pages and (especially) character sheets, Badass subtropes is the other big violator here, besides Five-Man Band.
"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
I'm with nrjxll, I'd like an explanation of why this is necessary. The nested version looks much cleaner to me. Helps illustrate the relationship between the supertropes/subtropes, too.
10 DragonQuestZ3rd Sep 2012 03:06:20 PM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
[up][up][up]Well it would be best to fix them in all pages when we see them, just to make it clear it's not okay, period.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
11 Deboss3rd Sep 2012 05:17:02 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Nested makes sense for Five-Man Band since it's a trope composed of five other tropes. For a normal super/subtrope distinction it looks bad though.
Seeking for Light
[up] I agree with this.
13 Deboss3rd Sep 2012 06:59:52 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
I suppose I could see other nested only style tropes used. For instance, I believe that Badass and its subtropes are bad examples since that's just a trope and subtrope. Besides which, most badass tropes begin with badass so it's not a problem. Another one I think was mentioned somewhere was Gameplay Balance and stuff like Fragile Speedster, which I think is a bad example because Fragile Speedster is commonly used outside of a gameplay setting.
14 Xtifr3rd Sep 2012 07:12:32 PM , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
I don't have any strong feelings about whether we should or shouldn't do this. I do, however, consider it to be about as low a priority as I can possibly imagine. Basically, if this is something you want done, you're on your own, as far as I'm concerned. But I will wave a cheery, "good luck" from the side-lines, while I work on special efforts that actually seem not-pointless. :)
"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
15 Fighteer4th Sep 2012 06:40:25 AM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
@Deboss: Badass, Competitive Balance, and occasionally Time Travel are ones that I often see used in this manner.

@Xtifr: This is not an emergency. This is just something I want to put out there so we have a reference point for making the cleanup stick.

edited 4th Sep '12 6:41:05 AM by Fighteer

16 Deboss4th Sep 2012 04:36:30 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Yeah, none of those fit. That's a standard trope and subtrope relationship and should be in standard order. I think that a trope that is essentially just a group of other tropes (Five-Man Band or Five Bad B And both come to mind) it sort of works since the only way to explain it is to point to the others.

Upon thinking on it for a few minutes, perhaps

Would be a better method.

edited 4th Sep '12 4:42:54 PM by Deboss

17 Fighteer4th Sep 2012 05:10:20 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
18 AnotherDuck5th Sep 2012 01:09:46 AM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
I've always preferred grouping. I suppose the difference is whether you want an alphabetical list of tropes, or a coherent list of tropes. For me, on a trope page, the trope with its examples is the important part, not the works that carry the examples. On a work page, the work with its tropes relate to each other is the important part, not the tropes by themselves.

I don't see lumping supertropes and subtropes together any different than lumping tropes concerning a specific character together, or YMMV tropes.

I mean, if you see that a work has a Five-Man Band, you probably want to see who those members are, without hunting through the entire trope list. An alphabetical trope list is good for specific tropes, but a grouped list is better for the overall page.

[up][up]That looks a little clumsy to me, and it doesn't do anything about the hunting down tropes bit.

edited 9th Feb '13 11:10:42 AM by AnotherDuck

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19 MarqFJA9th Feb 2013 09:58:27 AM from Saudi Arabia , Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
Deboss's scheme here looks okay, though I think it would be better if instead of "Character A" it was "Character A as The Leader". That's just me, though.
Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
In uffish thought
This is under Merlin on Characters.Merlin; what do we do with it?

21 SeptimusHeap24th Feb 2013 05:13:41 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
List all his powers under Superpower Lottery, delete the rest for being Zero Context.
Seeking for Light
[up][up] I'd try to put it into paragraph format (i.e. something along the lines, "his powers include A, B, C, D, ..., etc.). If the sub-listed tropes had context, they should have also been shifted to the top level, but as they're ZCE, there's no point in doing so.
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Total posts: 22