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Ambiguous Name: Cold Flames
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Total posts: [47]
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Ambiguous Name: Cold Flames get usage counts

Seeking for Light
Cold Flames isn't about non-burning flames. It's about supernatural illusory flames which can burn things. It's getting misuse for non-burning flames, as well as (due to the way the description is worded) supernatural beings made of flame. See the wick check below.

This came up in the Kill It with Fire TRS thread, but I figured that it should get its own thread, because we were discussing doing a Trope Transplant.

In the aforementioned thread, I suggested that there are really three tropes here:
  1. supernatural beings which appear made out of flames (will-o-the-wisps, certain types of ghosts, etc.)—this might fall under Elemental Embodiment already; however, Elemental Embodiment would be for things made out of normal flame, where many of these things (such as will-o'-the-wisps and ghosts) aren't normal fire but don't really fit under illusory flame either, as they're more than an illusion
  2. illusory flames, i.e. things which look like flame and act like flame (for the most part), but aren't actually flame. Usually this would include the ability to burn things—more or less the current description of Cold Flamesnote 
  3. cold fire: flames (either real or illusory) which don't burn things

I'll be making a YKTTW for #3 regardless, as it's a trope we don't have, but I would like to suggest transplanting that trope to Cold Flames, and moving #2 off to a new name.

Wick check

Redirect: Will-o'-the-Wisp—this is a bad redirect given the current definition, because will-o'-the-wisps don't actually burn things

Checking 32 of 63 wicks (50%).

Summary: With some pages having more than one instance, there are 35 instances total.
  • Illusory fire: 17 total (49%)
    • that burns: 12 (34%) (though some of these may just mean "magic fire"—it's unclear whether they're actually referring to an illusion or magically created fire)
    • that doesn't burn: 1 (3%)
    • that's unclear whether or not it burns: 4 (11%)
  • Burnless fire: 5 (14%)
  • Supernatural beings that appear to be made out of fire: 4 (11%)
  • Unclear: 8 (23%)
  • Link to the main page from a subpage: 1 (3%)

 2 Deboss, Thu, 19th Jul '12 3:57:07 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Pokemon looks like Holy Fire.
 3 Earnest, Thu, 19th Jul '12 4:57:19 PM from Monterrey, Mexico Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Happy puppy
If the option is to break it into Sub Tropes then I would rather have a Super Trope type page with an expanded definition that notes Tropes Are Flexible and keeps those 63 wicks rather than 4 subtropes none of which break 20.

edited 19th Jul '12 4:57:59 PM by Earnest

Seeking for Light
It's not a subtrope/supertrope thing, it's a "it's being used for multiple different, only peripherally related tropes" thing. Not to mention that the name suggests a different trope than the actual description is of.

 5 Earnest, Thu, 19th Jul '12 5:48:08 PM from Monterrey, Mexico Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Happy puppy
They're all thematically related and share enough traits in common to be considereed Sister Tropes. While we could split it off into separe tropes, I'm concerned we'll just be creating hard to diferentiat poorly wicked articles.

edited 19th Jul '12 5:48:39 PM by Earnest

Seeking for Light
Okay, I've written up two YKTTWs and a sandbox page for what I propose. If my proposal gets decided against, they can easily be discarded or modified, as necessary.

Each YKTTW has one trope I identified as tacked onto/mashed into the current Cold Flames definition: Burnless Fire and Supernatural Flame-Like Being. The sandbox (Illusory Flames) contains my proposed re-write of the current definition, with all the digressions stripped out.

My proposal is that Burnless Fire be transplanted to the name Cold Flames, and the current Cold Flames definition (using my re-write) be moved to a different name, one that actually suggests the illusory nature of the flames in the trope. Supernatural Flame-Like Being is rather independent of this, and only listed here because it is crammed into the current Cold Flames description.

 7 Mr.Cales, Fri, 19th Oct '12 12:25:06 AM from Misty Mountains
One of the Nine
I agree that this would work best as two separate tropes. Cold Flames is one thing, Will o the Wisps are another (being fire that doesn't burn and a fictional being, respectively).
STAND BACK! I TAKE LARGE STEPS!
This separation is a good idea. Cold Fire = Burnless Fire, with Illusory Flames separated.

The flame-like creature trope needs a better name, though. It's a subtrope of Elemental Embodiment, right? And different from Wreathed in Flames? To be clear, with a lot of monsters you can't tell if it's Wreathed in Flames or Made Of Flames, and authors don't necessarily distinguish.

Flaming Hair a trope, I see.

edited 19th Oct '12 8:53:31 AM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Piffy
Re: The Gunnerkrigg Court example: The fire in question is a magical one that provides heat and burns some things but not others.
Because underscores break everything: Working link to my Troper page
Seeking for Light
[up][up] I am well aware that the flame-like creature trope needs a better name; I am awful at coming up with names and that's the only one I could think of, which is why it's the placeholder name.

Also, that trope is not really a subtrope of Elemental Embodiment, although they're related. Elemental Embodiment is when a creature is made of real flames, whereas the flame-like creature only has to appear to be made of flame; it doesn't have to be real fire. For example, will-o'-the-wisps are generally bluish-white, don't generate heat, and won't ignite anything, so they can't be said to be made of real fire, but they still have a fire-like appearance.

And yes, it's distinct from Wreathed in Flames; that trope is when there's a substantial body under the flames, whereas the flame-like being is insubstantial (made of nothing but the "flames"). I do see your point about it potentially being difficult to tell the two apart, though.

edited 19th Oct '12 11:00:47 AM by Nocturna

If the Gunnerkrigg example is Antimony's blinker stone flames, then they belong in Playing with Fire and/or the Magical Fire YKTTW. They can be real or illusory, burning or cool, consuming or not consuming fuel, or whatever she wants.

[up]I see. A being made of what looks like flames, but need not be real fire. In cases where it is real fire, how is it different from Elemental Embodiment?

If it were always fake or non-burning fire, it could be Fiend Of Faux Flames or Faux Flames Fiend. Maybe. I'm also bad at good names.

edited 19th Oct '12 3:30:02 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Piffy
[up]It is, in fact, the blinker stone flames.
Because underscores break everything: Working link to my Troper page
Seeking for Light
[up][up] I would think that anything that's made of read flames would fall under Elemental Embodiment. Faux Flame Fiend might work, but they're not always evil...

 14 lu 127, Sun, 9th Dec '12 8:07:16 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
Clocking.
小さく揺れた向日葵
Is there, in fact, a consensus to use Nocturna's split-and-transplant proposal? Are there any other proposals?

Does it need a crowner?

edited 9th Dec '12 12:35:13 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Seeking for Light
I'm thinking it probably needs a crowner. I just don't have time to get to it now. (One more week until Christmas break. One more week!)

 17 lu 127, Fri, 14th Dec '12 10:43:58 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
Crowner hookage.
小さく揺れた向日葵
Any ideas for the new name? Illusory Flames is one, but it doesn't get across the idea that they're supposed to hurt.
Seeking for Light
Not sure if this is a good idea or just a horrible pun, but maybe Brain Flames for a name.

Seeking for Light
Bumping for votes.

 21 lu 127, Thu, 3rd Jan '13 8:41:59 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
Bump again.
小さく揺れた向日葵
I clicked this thread thinking the trope (which I hadn't read before) was about former lovers. Ambiguous name, indeed... [lol]

I can't think of a better one, though. Illusory Flames does sound like "looks like fire, but doesn't hurt."

edited 4th Jan '13 3:39:50 PM by InsanityPrelude

 23 lu 127, Mon, 7th Jan '13 11:53:27 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
And again.
小さく揺れた向日葵
 24 Septimus Heap, Mon, 7th Jan '13 12:50:11 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Has anyone a description of the transplanted-in trope?

Seeking for Light
The proposal is in YKTTW: [1].

Alternative Titles: Cold Flames
25th May '13 10:42:50 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:
Total posts: 47
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