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Unclear Description: Asian Hooker Stereotype get usage counts

Didn't we just have a topic on the ways that snowclone is flawed?

I could have sworn we did...

 27 shimaspawn, Thu, 26th Apr '12 9:27:10 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
@Spark 9: Wrong way around. Our X Are Different is being encouraged because it gets much better quality pages, wicks and examples than any other format for monster tropes. We've done studies and comparisons, and it's just plain better.

All X Are Y on the other hand is depreciated because it encourages natter, justifying examples, aversions, and other bad stuff.

edited 26th Apr '12 9:27:46 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 28 Septimus Heap, Thu, 26th Apr '12 9:28:59 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
[up]Offtopic, but you might note it on Everything's Worse with Snowclones, then.

 29 shimaspawn, Thu, 26th Apr '12 9:33:21 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
[up] Tweaked it. It's one of those things that works against common sense and we were really shocked when we were going through the monster tropes to clean them up because of it. Despite our preconceived ideas, the quality of examples, number of wicks and inbounds, and general shape of the pages with the snow clone is just better with the snowclone.

It can stay. The rest can get the hell out.

edited 26th Apr '12 9:42:20 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
A discussion about All X Are Y is still open here. It hasn't reached the stage where we have a written policy discouraging the wording, but I'd like it to.

@Scardoll

Post 8: This is an easy mistake to make. In my opinion, a trope's "related" page should include info on when the trope was launched.

Post 6: The paragraph is very clearly about the creepy opinions of some lonely male characters (or authors). However, people's attentionspans being what they might be, you are right that the last sentence really needed to be clarified. I have now changed "it makes her a Race Traitor." to ", "these guys may even consider her a "Race Traitor"."

This problem lead us to another that has been discussed in this thread, the whole "All X Are Y" thing. As has been pointed out, that family of snowclones has it's own set of problems. However, in this case, there is also the issue of TV Tropes coming across as having a creepy/racist/sexist/bigoted opinion. For this reason, the entire "Rape is okay..." family of snowclones was recently removed through renames and cuts. Because, no, TV Tropes does in fact not have the opinion that rape is okay. And while the tropes was never meant to indicate such a statement of position, they could come across that way. Likewise, TV Tropes does NOT hold the belief that Asian women are a certain way, and should not come across as such.

Finally, the trope is not only about Asian women actually being sex workers, it's also about Asian women being perceived/stereotyped/accused as such even when they are not.

As for the Mammoth, Full Metal Jacket and Platform, examples, they are straight examples. Mammoth is not exaggerated to the level of including everyone, but this doesn't make it less straight. Full Metal Jacket has undertones and dissonance, but this is merely relevant context - not affecting how the trope itself is being played. Platform plays the trope, then add a Not So Different twist that moves on from racism into the area of generic misanthropy.

The paragraph is very clearly about the creepy opinions of some lonely male characters (or authors). However, people's attentionspans being what they might be, you are right that the last sentence really needed to be clarified. I have now changed "it makes her a Race Traitor." to ", "these guys may even consider her a "Race Traitor"."

But this still has nothing to do with the definition of the trope. It sounds like something that would be long on an Analysis page, but not here.

Likewise, TV Tropes does NOT hold the belief that Asian women are a certain way, and should not come across as such.

And there's no reason we have to state that in the description. The very name "Asian Hooker Stereotype" does a good enough job of letting people know that this is not how we (or any sane person) would see Asian women. We don't need to hamfist it down peoples' throats. We can add "And That's Terrible" to the Analysis page, if it's necessary.

edited 30th Apr '12 5:11:20 AM by KingZeal

 33 lu 127, Tue, 29th May '12 1:23:18 PM from the Capital of Light Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
Clocking as inactive.
迷子の足音消えた
代わりに祈りの唄
If I have any problem with this trope its the hammering of "Evil whites" at least once every sentence. I mean Jesus Christ this trope summary is so filled with white guilt and or self-hatred its ridiculous if I got anything from this its not about an Asian girl who's a hooker its about those blue eyed white devils with their racism. Its pretty damn funny the more I read it.

"Among white racist stereotypes, one of the classics is that the difference between white women and Asian women is that white women are respectable while Asian women are to be considered as prostitutes." "Starting out among white people, this stereotype has since been adopted and nourished by some conservative Asians, as a Double Standard to keep "their" women in line: Western women can be free and still respectable, but an Asian woman behaving in the same way is to be condemned as a prostitute." "White guy who consider her a whore for being Asian" "It can also be used against male white characters, accusing him of being a john for visiting Asian countries or hanging out with Asian women. "

 
People Sit on Chairs and Complaining. I don't see a trope here.

Yeah, no.

Another example of People Sit on Chairs being misused.

[up] Hold on, read this to explain why this trope is not valid:

Among white racist stereotypes, one of the classics is that the difference between white women and Asian women is that white women are respectable while Asian women are to be considered as prostitutes.— Well, Whites Are Racist, you can YKTTW that, it's a valid trope, but that's definitely gonna be a very good idea. As for the stereotype here, the first paragraph requires a respectable white woman in the frame. That makes it a rarer "trope" than it already is.

I'm not gonna copy-paste the second paragraph, but it still talks about an Asian prostitute vs a Western woman. You need these two characters according to the description. Except for the last sentence, which talks about dishonor and Category Traitor, which again, it makes it an even rarer trope.

Third paragraph it's a mess, but I got something. It says there are many possible ways for this "trope" to come to play.

Possibility number 1: the only Asian character in the movie it's a prostitute...This is People Sit on Chairs , if the actor who got the role of the prostitute happened to be Asian how is this a stereotype?

Possibility Number 2: It doesn't have to be a sex worker, just be called a whore. It doesn't have to be a White guy who calls her that, an Asian guy it's also OK for the trope. Just to be called a whore? Just name-calling?

Possibility Number 3 White males who hang out with Asian girls will be frown upon. For how many characters is this description about?

Possibility Number 4 White Males who visit Asian countries are frowned upon. No comment needed.

Fourth paragraph: A Yamato Nadeshiko is Defiled Forever ...how? Is it out of necessity? If it's out of necessity, it's Truth in Television, it's a valid trope, but why does it have to be confined among Asians only *? Also, this stereotype might turn into an Asian Baby Mama. So far we don't have a stereotype.

"Often played as a pure sex-object or object for pity. Hardly ever played as a admirable and problem-free character. " How are other types of prostitutes often portrayed?

"Frequently found in places where you can get a Happy Ending Massage. " Actually, we might have found a trope in the last sentence of the description. "If the woman that gives a massage it's Asian, she'll be a prostitute"... But this character is already covered in Happy Ending Massage . This character will always be in the massage parlour, or else we have no trope. There is no other stereotype mentioned, so what? Will there be one trope for the massage parlour and one for the worker there? If you write the examples for each, won't they be repeated? It like having a trope for The Archer and one for The Arrow (the arrow is not special/magical/etc.)

edited 29th Jun '12 3:49:08 PM by drdeathray

First of all, I don't agree with any of the other points in description. As I said, I don't like the way xzenu gets too overly-complicated with his descriptions.

However, this part:

Possibility number 1: the only Asian character in the movie it's a prostitute...This is People Sit on Chairs

Is flat out wrong.

It's a trope, because it's a pattern. To quote Fighteer in another thread:

I don't know why people keep doing this. Tropes include not only storytelling and characterization patterns but also patterns applicable to the medium - gameplay tropes in video games, visual tropes in filmmaking, even spelling and grammar in written works. These are all recurring patterns, things that are observable and that have a purpose.

This trope is a pattern with a purpose: to objectify and sexualize an asian woman, and to make western culture appear better by default. It appears time after time after time in media, and is even noted by Wikipedia as one of the major exploitations of asian women.

As I said, you're misusing People Sit on Chairs, and using "trope" (with quotations) as a backhanded term. Two pet peeves of mine.

Read the rest of the sentence, it's out of the context in your quote. I said if the character hired to play the prostitute happens to be Asian it's not a trope.

Let's just say the Asian woman hired has a problem with the schedule and can't play that role. Somebody else is hired, and it's not Asian, plays a prostitute, but she's not Asian. Is it still Asian Hooker Stereotype ?

This trope is a pattern with a purpose: to objectify and sexualize an asian woman, and to make western culture appear better by default
Definitely looks like an example to complain in All Whites Are Racists ...by default. The examples in the trope page are not played straight, the description contains no steretype.

edited 29th Jun '12 5:59:17 PM by drdeathray

Being a hooker is the stereotype. Same as Angry Black Man. A man who's angry at the government? Not a stereotype. A black guy who does it? Stereotype.

Read the rest of the sentence, it's out of the context in your quote. I said if the character hired to play the prostitute happens to be Asian it's not a trope.

Let's just say the Asian woman hired has a problem with the schedule and can't play that role. Somebody else is hired, and it's not Asian, plays a prostitute, but she's not Asian. Is it still Asian Hooker Stereotype ?

Not the point. It's the same problem as Black Dude Dies First. It's an aggregate role, so it has very Unfortunate Implications because it's a role that is used for that particular race very, very often.

I'm looking at some stereotypes from The Other Wiki , maybe it's better portrayed there:

China (Porcelain) Doll Stereotype

According to author Sheridan Prasso, the China [porcelain] doll stereotype and other variations of this submissive stereotype exist in American movies. This includes the "Geisha Girl/Lotus Flower/Servant/China Doll: Submissive, docile, obedient, reverential; the Vixen/Sex Nymph: Sexy, coquettish, manipulative; tendency toward disloyalty or opportunism; the Prostitute/Victim of Sex Trade/War/Oppression: Helpless, in need of assistance or rescue; good-natured at heart." (The first one look like Yamato Nadeshiko , the second looks like Dragon Lady, the third one seems like a hooker stereotype, specifically Hooker with a Heart of Gold: Asian Edition although the description of this trope says "Often played as a pure sex-object or object for pity. Hardly ever played as a admirable and problem-free character".)

An iconic source of images of East Asian women in the 20th century in the West is the 1957 British novel and 1960 American film, The World of Suzie Wong, about a Hong Kong woman. UC Berkeley Professor of Asian American Studies Elaine Kim argued in the 1980s that the stereotype of East Asian women as submissive has impeded their economic mobility. (Suzie Wong is a Hooker with a Heart of Gold and gets a happy ending, that's Asian Girl White Guy.)

Another is Madama Butterfly (Madame Butterfly), an opera in three acts (originally two acts) by Giacomo Puccini, with an Italian libretto by Luigi Illica and Giuseppe Giacosa. It is the story of a Japanese maiden (Cio-Cio San), who falls in love with a white American navy lieutenant. The Japanese girl and the officer have sex, resulting in a child. The American seaman leaves while Cio-Cio San blissfully awaits his return, who arrives back in Japan with his American wife in tow. The heartbroken Japanese girl bids farewell to her callous lover, then kills herself. (Covered in Asian Girl White Guy it's even a redirect Madame Butterfly Syndrome)

There has been much controversy about the opera, especially its sexist and racist themes. It is the most-performed opera in the United States, where its rank as Number 1 in Opera America's list of the 20 most-performed operas in North America only helps to perpetuate the notion of the dominant white male over the subdued East Asian female who can be cast aside as described by Sheridan Prasso in her book, The Asian Mystique: Dragon Ladies, Geisha Girls, & Our Fantasies of the Exotic Orient published in 2005.(Asian Girl White Guy)

A contemporary example would be Miss Saigon, a 1989 musical by Claude-Michel Schönberg and Alain Boublil, a modern adaptation of Giacomo Puccini's opera Madame Butterfly. This musical has received criticism for what some have perceived as a racist or sexist overtone, including protests regarding its portrayal of East Asian men, East Asian women, or women in general. It banked a record $25 million in advance ticket sales when it was opening on Broadway.(Asian Girl White Guy and the part of "women in general" makes this not an Asian specific trope)

The stereotype of Asian hookers is Hooker with a Heart of Gold . Frequently portrayed in Asian Girl White Guy scenarios.

We have two stereotypes so far: The Asian Girl White Guy, where the Asian is a prostitute , and Asian massager is a hooker. More stereotypes?

edited 29th Jun '12 8:49:56 PM by drdeathray

...What?

[up] The most common Asian Hooker Stereotype is Hooker with a Heart of Gold and overlaps with Asian Girl White Guy .

edited 29th Jun '12 9:05:43 PM by drdeathray

I don't understand where "That U John Wayne" and "drdeathray" get the idea that the current description would imply that whites in general (or worse yet, all whites) are racists. The trope is a racist stereotype. While the stereotype is about a certain race/gender, it can be invoked by characters of any race and gender.

Okay, found it. The phrase "white racist stereotypes" could be interpreted like that. Changed it to "racist stereotypes".

[up] Removed one white, left all the others, the implications are still there (All Whites Are Racist):

Among racist stereotypes, one of the classics is that the difference between white women and Asian women is that white women are respectable while Asian women are to be considered as prostitutes. Whether or not the individual Asian woman is a sex worker or not is often beside the point.

Historically starting out among white people, this stereotype has since been adopted and nourished by some conservative Asians, as a Double Standard to keep "their" women in line: Western women can be free and still respectable, but an Asian woman behaving in the same way is to be condemned as a prostitute. This typically come in the form of Entitled to Have You implications that every Asian woman has some kind of duty to marry an Asian man - if she goes Asian Gal with White Guy, these guys may even consider her a "Race Traitor".

Fix this part it's a mess (the parts in Italic specifically): This trope can come to play in many different ways. When it is a part of a work's narrative itself, it might come in the form of the work's only female Asian character just happening to be a sex worker. When the trope is played by a character, it often come in the form of sexual harassment against a female Asian character - either by a white guy who consider her a whore for being Asian, or by an Asian guy who consider her a whore for not choosing him (Note: calling a woman a whore doesn't make her a hooker, it's an insult, not characterization) . It can also be used against male white characters, accusing him of being a john for visiting Asian countries or hanging out with Asian women.

Remove completely, this trope is very rare already: This trope is sometimes used as a counterpoint for some other trope. In some settings, Asian women are Yamato Nadeshiko by default, but are easily Defiled Forever into this trope. In other settings, all Asian women are bad, although in different ways: She may be either this trope, or a devious Dragon Lady. In any case, an Asian Hooker Stereotype character might morph into an Asian Babymama.

Change the definition: Often played as a pure sex-object or object for pity. Hardly ever played as a admirable and problem-free character. Western stereotypes on Asian women: the Prostitute/Victim of Sex Trade/War/Oppression: Helpless, in need of assistance or rescue; good-natured at heart'' Because there are no straight examples of the first definition, and for a good reason: It's not portrayed in fiction. Maybe IRL yes (and I have no reason to doubt it), but not in media. There are far more straight examples where Asian hookers are portrayed as admirable characters, rather than just sex objects (the current definition).

edited 30th Jun '12 12:39:42 PM by drdeathray

Okay, lets get to work.

The description runs on three basic distinctions:
  1. The distinction between white and Asian.
  2. The distinction between the one doing the stereotyping and the one being stereotyped.
  3. The distinction between stereotyping actively done by characters and stereotyping built into the narrative.

It appears the current description puts too much emphasis on the first distinction while failing to adequately communicate the other two distinctions.

drdeathray: You highlight five uses of "white" or "western", but three of these five are actually about white women being stereotyped, not about white people doing stereotyping. Granted, they are being stereotyped in acomparatively favorable light, but that doesn't change that they are being stereotyped. It is obvious from your argument that you have failed to see this distinction. And it is also obvious that if you make this mistake, then others will do the same mistake as well. Thus, you have successfully proven that the description needs to be clarified.

Also. The current description seems to be trying to squeeze a "playing with" page into the main page, leaving it even more garbled.

New version incoming, copypasting the old version here for backup

Old version

Among racist stereotypes, one of the classics is that the difference between white women and Asian women is that white women are respectable while Asian women are to be considered as prostitutes. Whether or not the individual Asian woman is a sex worker or not is often beside the point.

Historically starting out among white people, this stereotype has since been adopted and nourished by some conservative Asians, as a Double Standard to keep "their" women in line: Western women can be free and still respectable, but an Asian woman behaving in the same way is to be condemned as a prostitute. This typically come in the form of Entitled to Have You implications that every Asian woman has some kind of duty to marry an Asian man - if she goes Asian Gal with White Guy, these guys may even consider her a "Race Traitor".

This trope can come to play in many different ways. When it is a part of a work's narrative itself, it might come in the form of the work's only female Asian character just happening to be a sex worker. When the trope is played by a character, it often come in the form of sexual harassment against a female Asian character - either by a white guy who consider her a whore for being Asian, or by an Asian guy who consider her a whore for not choosing him. It can also be used against male white characters, accusing him of being a john for visiting Asian countries or hanging out with Asian women.

This trope is sometimes used as a counterpoint for some other trope. In some settings, Asian women are Yamato Nadeshiko by default, but are easily Defiled Forever into this trope. In other settings, all Asian women are bad, although in different ways: She may be either this trope, or a devious Dragon Lady. In any case, an Asian Hooker Stereotype character might morph into an Asian Babymama.

Often played as a pure sex-object or object for pity. Hardly ever played as a admirable and problem-free character.

Frequently found in places where you can get a Happy Ending Massage.

edited 1st Jul '12 7:50:53 AM by Xzenu

Text revision

One classic racist & misogynistic stereotype is contempt for Asian women, in the form of considering them to be prostitutes. This stereotyping does not have to include a belief that the woman is literally a sex-worker.

When the stereotype comes from the narrative itself, it comes as a pattern of difference between white and Asian female characters. While a wider range of roles is presented as natural for white characters, the female Asian characters are normally sex-workers or similar. Often played as pure sex-objects or objects for pity.

When the stereotype comes from a character, the details of his prejudice or bigotry usually depends on his race. If the person doing the stereotyping is ...

  • ...a white man, then he's usually a regular misogynistic racist who uses the stereotype as his excuse to treat Asian women badly.
  • ...an Asian man, then he tends to have an agenda of preserving conservative gender roles while self-righteously bullying women into becoming his girlfriend.
  • ...a woman, then it's probably a matter of jealousy in one way or another.

Contrast Yamato Nadeshiko and Ethical Slut. Compare Dragon Lady, Asian Babymama and Happy Ending Massage.

edited 1st Jul '12 7:35:50 AM by Xzenu

For what it's worth, I deleted the Sin City example since the character of Miho is never explicitly stated as being a hooker. She lives in a Red Light District and works as an enforcer/assassin the local prostitutes, but there is nothing to suggest she herself is a sex worker.
 
 50 ccoa, Wed, 15th Aug '12 5:49:06 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Was anything done here?
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
Total posts: 56
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