All-Purpose Nasuverse Fanfiction Thread

I'm actually adopting both of the alternate takes on Arturia that Crossy Cross used. I have his blessing, even. (I think, at least. It's been quite a while since I last talked to him. I'm sure I did mention that his story inspired me to work on my own mega-Grail War fic, though.)

... And now I'm contemplating substituting Nero with an AU Arturia that decided to take a more... passion-centric path compared to her the other alternates. And somehow had a major growth spurt in one area sometime after she made that decision.

edited 24th Jun '15 6:45:25 PM by MarqFJA

My favorite version for Saber Lily I've seen in a fic had her basically be unable to bring herself to be the Perfect King who would do anything and everything that he found necessary.

Represented by Arturia being forced to choose between saving a baby found in a burnt cottage or giving it a Mercy Kill to ends its suffering. Saber killed the baby and became fully immersed in the King Arthur persona, while Saber Lily couldn't bring herself to do it and reconnected with her humanity.

If Arturia asked for bigger breasts, I'm 100% positive Merlin could find a way to do it.

edited 24th Jun '15 6:57:59 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

I'm 100% positive that Merlin already had a way to do it and was constantly debating just randomly doing it one night for shits and giggles.

I imagine having a big chest is a royal bother when you constantly have to wear metallic body armor.

I'm actually thinking of having hotblood!Arturia's bust get bigger in spite of Merlin specifically refusing to do anything in hopes of forcing her to eventually beg and plead him. Perhaps her stubborn refusal to lower herself to that level and determination to somehow achieve such proportions forced all the calories from her trademark massive food intake that weren't consumed for her magical energy reserves to her breasts?

Unless you specifically order a custom-designed set of chest armor that would fit her magnificent bust. With magical enchantments to improve defensive properties from dear old Merlin, if necessary.

OMG, now I am imagining hotblood!Arturia giving over-the-top names to all of her attacks (and not just her Noble Phantasm). Complete with exaggerated movements, too.

edited 24th Jun '15 7:39:53 PM by MarqFJA

Who is she? Kamina?

Mix of that, Fate Extra's Nero, and this guy. And probably a dash of Jack Rakan's over-the-topness (though not story-breaking power).

edited 24th Jun '15 7:40:55 PM by MarqFJA

how the shit is that even a question?!

You just contradicted yourself there.

Anyway, you raise a very good point. If Arturia could save a baby, there's unlikely to be a reason why she wouldn't do so. You need to rethink the premise behind the change.

Remember: As I said, she found it in a burnt cottage.

You can imagine the condition of that baby when she found it.

It wasn't a question of killing a perfectly healthy baby for no good reason. That's just wasteful.

When I mentioned the supports? That was because I didn't think of them until after I already said that he lacked interesting character traits/Hidden Depths (on the basis of, ISTR they never showed up in his -very few- appearances in the main narrative). Basically, I wrote the sentence in a manner that reflected the way I was thinking.

Arturia knows Merlin. MER-LIN. There's no reason she couldn't beg or bargain with him to heal that kid and save it! Or, hell, maybe if she let it cuddle with Avalon or something, that would make a difference, I dunno!

It's just... only the bad guys kill. babies. as a first resort!

If there's nothing you can do about it, that's one thing, but King. Motherfucking. Arthur. has options that most normal people - hell, a lot of normal Kings - wouldn't have!

edited 24th Jun '15 11:18:03 PM by EvaUnit01

Why would Arturia kill an infant if she could actually save it? Perhaps more importantly, why would Arturia be looking through a cottage that's on fire?

Really, your scenario has nothing to do with being a perfect king.

I mean, let's make this easier to understand. Let's take Shirou during the Fuyuki City Fire but replace Kiritsugu with Saber. You're saying that she'd mercy kill Shirou even though Avalon is right there. She wouldn't even have to use Avalon in the scenario you're describing.

Honestly, a perfect king would still try to save the baby in your scenario since saving the baby won't cost her anything and will actually cause her to gain things regardless if the baby lives or dies.

I mean. I don't even like babies (they creep me out), and I am deeply perturbed by this scenario!

The woman's Lawful GOOD fer chrissakes!

Way to focus on one single thing and completely miss the point.

So long as you refuse to look past the whole 'she killed a baby! Complete Monster!' thing, you won't get to see the situation the way I do.

You're screaming and shouting and yelling about "SHE HAS OPTIONS! SHE HAS OPTIONS!"... but she doesn't.

There is no Merlin there. By the time she got Merlin, the Baby would already be dead. And that is if Merlin can heal it in the first place. And even if she could help it survive... what kind of state do you think the baby would be in afterwards? Do you think it could lead a healthy life, full of joy and happiness? Do I need to remind you what time period Arturia lived in?

There is no way to save it. All you can do is euthanize it to end its suffering.

There aren't options. There's not a magic man who can make the rules of the universe roll over and play dead so you can have your happy ending.

And if you hadn't noticed...

This is the situation in Britannia at the time in a nutshell right there.

This has everything to do with being a Perfect King.

Because the Perfect King does what needs to be done. Not what is morally sound. Not what helps him sleep at night. Not what he knows is the right thing to do.

The Perfect King does what the Perfect King must, as repulsive and morally bankrupt as the act might be.

And that's the entire reason why I think this works as a divergence point.

Because the first person who Arturia sacrifices to become the Perfect King...

... is Arturia herself.

In one world, Arturia died, right then and there, so that the Perfect King Arthur Britannia needed could be born.

In another, Arturia refused to die, and became the Imperfect Queen Arturia Britannia deserved instead.

By the by, what do you think that a King known for riding into battle alongside his knights would be doing in a burnt cottage?

Where would a burnt cottage be?

Perhaps... in a village that the Angles or Saxons might have pillaged?

edited 25th Jun '15 12:03:41 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

Okay, so Merlin's not an option. I get that.

You still did not address that Arturia has Avalon, unless this occurred at a point in time before she got it. In which case, you could have said so.

A 'Perfect King' is one that either "does not have flaws", or better yet "cannot be improved upon". A 'King' is a human being that upholds the duty and responsibility of governance over his 'kingdom'. So to be 'Perfect', is to be beyond reproach in all things. Flawless and superb judgment in all matters of tactics, morality/ethics, administration of justice, etc. One that is 'perfect' is one that 'does not make mistakes', and is more than ready and prepared to meet any task of reason or of governance that should come before them. A 'Perfect King', to my mind, always does The Best (Ethically Sound) Thing for their kingdom. Perceived Lack of Empathy is a 'flaw' that a 'Perfect King' would not have, so a 'Perfect King' would be outwardly compassionate even when they must cross unsavory lines. A 'Perfect King' represents/embodies/reflects the 'heart' and 'soul' of his 'People'.

edited 25th Jun '15 12:21:49 AM by EvaUnit01

Way to focus on your own ideas and completely miss the point.

So long as you refuse to look past the whole "There's nothing she could have done!" thing, you won't get to see the situation the way we do.

You're screaming and shouting and yelling about "SHE HAS NO OPTIONS! SHE HAS NO OPTIONS!"... but she does.

So what if Merlin isn't right next to her? She should have Avalon on her, shouldn't she? Its powers work on other people. Even if it didn't or she doesn't, there's no way in hell that the king would be alone. The king would only be alone in his quarters (where guards would be stationed nearby) at the lavatory. Some form of healer would, magical or not, would be among these people. As for the baby's life afterwards, that depends on the severity and extent of the injuries and whether or not Arturia doesn't somehow stabilize the child and then bring them to Merlin (or if she doesn't use Avalon). Even if Merlin doesn't completely heal the baby or she doesn't use Avalon, happiness can still be gained in numerous was. Those who are crippled can still find happiness and joy.

I just pointed out two possible ways you can save the baby. The most obvious route would be the use of Avalon. Unless you're telling me the child was already the consistency of burnt bacon in which they're already dead and Arturia wouldn't have to mercy kill since she can just wait a second.

There are always option. Even without Merlin being right there, this about having a happy ending, this is about you forcing Arturia to do something completely out of character for the sake of your plot.

And as for your last point...

You're completely wrong. After all, England is very much alive and well today.

Oh, and one other thing. First, you remember how I said there's no way in hell that Arturia would ever be alone 99% of the time? Those people would be around to see their king kill an infant. You can argue until you're blue in the face but do you know what they would see? Their king killing an infant without even trying to save it. Even when acting as the perfect king, Arturia isn't an idiot and would be well aware of this. She wouldn't be sacrificing the infant in order to save two adults. If Arturia did what you're suggesting, I can all but guarantee you that her knights would have rebelled way before Mordred did her thing. Word about King Arthur killing an infant would get out quickly and spread like wildfire and someone, somewhere would stop explaining the scenario.

As for your explanation, all the less reason for her to be in there. She would instead be fighting off the invaders, dealing with any necessary politics, or perhaps planning a counteroffensive. At most, she'd command one of her knights to check for survivors but she probably wouldn't even do that and instead focus on making sure the invaders don't do it to another village.

edited 25th Jun '15 12:17:52 AM by Zelenal

I set the scenario. I'm focusing on the scenario I set. You made up your own, evidently.

You know, it doesn't really work like that. This isn't called 'arguing', this is what a child does when he or she has no arguments. 'I am rubber you are glue' does not an argument make.

Y Eah, she does have options in the scenario you made up in your head while apparently trying to discuss the one I set up. Oops.

Saber Lily has Caliburn, not Excalibur. The 'split' that created her has to, therefore, happen before she breaks Caliburn and needs to get Excalibur as a replacement. Therefore, I don't need to say 'she doesn't have Avalon', because she literally cannot possibly have Avalon in these circumstances. The King is not alone, much less so on campaign. So? What do you think the healers of that time could do with a burned baby? I assure you, they will not be able to heal it. If they could do that, then what passes for a standard of 'health' in their time period wouldn't be such shit.

Furthermore, you keep assuming the baby can be healed when in the scenario that's set up, such a thing is simply impossible.

No, you just set up two ways you wish the baby could be saved.

And every second you wait before the mercy kill is a second you're letting an innocent creature suffer because YOU can't bring yourself to end it.

No. There aren't always options. You can't always have a happy ending. Welcome to real life. Shit happens.

England. Yes. Land of the Angles. Or, as you might well know them to be, the people Arturia was trying to defend Britannia from. Oops.

King Arthur isn't killing a little baby to save two adults. King Arthur is ending the suffering of an innocent being who he can't bear to see suffer.

"She would instead be fighting off the invaders"... You're aware that if she's in a pillaged village after such an attack first order of priority would be to salvage everything that can be salvaged, look for survivors and otherwise clean up, right? Because, evidently, the time for fighting has already passed.

You can't just go out seeking constant battle. This isn't a game of Warband.

Yo, Eva Unit, I want you to remember one thing.

In the eyes of Merlin, and indeed, Arturia herself, the Perfect King is not a human being.

The King does not uphold morals. That is not what the King is there to do.

The King protects his country.

What is 'ethically sound' to you... does not matter. Because that is not what the King must do.

The King does what is the best course of action to ensure the safety and prosperity of the Kingdom. 'Ethically sound' is not a concept that even enters the equation at any point in time.

In a perfect world, the best course of action would be the morally correct one as well.

But this isn't a Perfect World we're talking about.

We're talking about a crapsack.

edited 25th Jun '15 12:37:21 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

So we're resorting to name calling now, are we? Fuck it, I'm done.

Name calling? Where?

I'm merely pointing out that 'I am rubber you are glue' is not an actual argument.

Let me make one thing clear:

I am not arguing about how morally or ethically sound the murder of babies is. Killing babies is bad and is something that no one, ever, should do or have to do. I cannot believe I have to make that statement.

The entire thing is metaphorical, and you're concentrating too much on the morally repulsive act. You're concentrating on the tree, and you can't see the forest.

edited 25th Jun '15 12:40:42 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

...you have sufficiently explained your point, that I concede it to you.

I still violently and vehemently disagree with the whole "A 'Perfect King' is 'not human'" bullshit, but I suppose I can chalk that up to Merlin being off his goddamned rocker and Arturia not knowing any better.

I mean, you said it yourself in the Dragonball fanfic thread. Goku is an idiot and his reasoning comes across as stupid to nearly anyone else... but it still makes perfect sense to Goku.

But then, "perfect" is such an inherently bullshit term because of its near-complete and total subjectivity, after all. So it's only natural that individuals with different ideologies will have different perspectives one what "perfect" means.

edited 25th Jun '15 12:47:13 AM by EvaUnit01

Eva Unit, you're only looking at it from your perspective.

Try to look at it from Arturia's.

Try to look at it from Merlin's perspective.

That way you can get to see why they come to the conclusions they come to, and why they act the way they do.

For instance... According to quite a few sources of Arthurian Legend, Merlin already knows that Britannia is a lost cause, and he already knows that the Angles and Saxons will win and eventually rule the realm. The 'Perfect King' is a last ditch effort to Screw Destiny.

And as for Arturia... she's fighting a war.

And believe me... the moral highground? It won't win you a war. No hax dex bonus.

edited 25th Jun '15 12:49:33 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

<sigh>

In the scenario you lined out, I can see the "I Did What I Had to Do" thing you were originally talking about. I get that. You explained it, so now it makes sense to me.

But the "perfect King isn't human" thing... I just don't get it, not one bit. My entire worldview on what constitutes optimal policy for politics/government, on what people in general - and not just rulers, but even common citizens - should aspire to be, is based on basic human compassion and reasoning with each other.

This "Good Is Not Soft, Or Nice, Or Even Remotely Approachable Or Understandable, even to your own True Companions" stuff... it makes about as much sense as Blue-and-Orange Morality to me.

...Or, was that the entire point of what he was going for? Instead of a united Britain falling to The Enemy, better for everything to self-destruct first? Some kind of political Better To Die Than To Be Killed logic, or something?

A functional human being with basic human decency might logically decide to Mercy Kill an infant if there was truly no other option/it was the "least horrible option". But I also imagine that they would also outwardly show regret for having done/having had to do so.

I get that to win a war, you sometimes have to make sacrifices, even of your own innocent people. But when you and your royal retinue are passing through a war-torn village after the battle, and you are confronted with children that have lost their fathers, and wives that no longer have husbands... wouldn't any proper ruler attempt to show them a little empathy? Even just a token "I'm sorry for your loss," or "What was your father's name? ...[name]? He was a good man. He deserved a kinder fate than what he was dealt." Just something that basic and simple... and Merlin and Arturia thought that doing something like that was wrong, that alienating people like that was the sane thing to do?

That's the kind of thing I can't make sense of.

Even disregarding everything else, you're going to get people who have the exact same problems we do or possibly others. By choosing to use this event, even if you use an Author's Note half the length of the entire story explaining yourself, you're going to alienate and drive off readers. It would be prudent to use a far simpler method that no one could reasonably argue against to achieve the same results.

For example, Bedevire joins the Royal Guard and tries to get to know his king. On a whim, Arturia decides to decides to respond to his efforts and gets to know him. This rekindles her more social/human side and she starts to get to know her other knights as well. Sure, it's no big, dramatic moment but you don't need one.

Now, if you insist on using your scenario then I obviously can't stop you. I still call bullshit on Arturia being in that burning cottage, though (I could buy her being in the village to oversee the efforts but that's it and I still think she'd be elsewhere figuring out a way to deal with the invaders).

I don't think this is even something IANCE is planning to write. He said he saw it in a fic.

Alternately, the King supervises while the soldiers go into burning cottages in search of salvage-able things that can be salvaged.

One of them finds a baby half-burned to death, takes it to the King for his judgment call on what to do with it.

Then Arturia comes to the decision that there isn't anything that can be done for the poor thing except to put it out of its misery.

Does this seem like an acceptable suggestion/way of framing the issue?

Actually, in retrospect, that does sound about right.

edited 25th Jun '15 1:31:43 AM by EvaUnit01