Trying too hard: Char Clone

15 extremely broad attributes, and somehow if a character fit just 2 of them he's somehow clearly invoking a specific character from a specific franchise.That's just ridiculous. Either the potential attribute list needs to shorten down to the bare essentials of Char's characterization, or the characters in this trope should be meet a least 5 attributes.

Sidenote: Bruce Lee Clone might need a trs thread as well. I don't understand how some tropers can believe that saying what a trope could or may is somehow the same thing as defining it.

From what I can tell, the main problem here is that a lot of the traits are very broad, and so only a combination of a lot of them indicates a char clone. By the current page's definition, Darth Vader, Rorschach and Metaknight are Char clones.

You'd think the examples would be mecha only, but one of the traits says "Status as The Ace. And if applicable, Ace Pilot."

edited 25th May '11 1:28:13 PM by Scardoll

Well Zero in Mega Man X is Word of God a Char Clone.

Fire Emblem Camus / Sirius as well carries a vast majority of the qualifications even a Quattro dynamic.

These are not Real Robot or Super Robot. So it isnt exclusive.

Not including Fate from Nanoha as the series is Magical Girl Gundam.

Vader though? he has a lot of the qualifications but yikes Fridge Brilliance there considering that Gundam is considered the Star Wars of japan. EDIT: however he fails at one key area You Have Failed Me they can not be this they might be a little cold and calculating at time and send people to die they cant be this. (and Vader is the trope namer so...)

Out of the list though I think we can kill "May suffer from Cloning Blues" and make 3 or 4 required.

edited 25th May '11 1:44:49 PM by Raso

>mfw remembering that Vader was an Ace Pilot.

edited 25th May '11 1:46:43 PM by EternalSeptember

Dude, this is what I mean by trying too hard. Fate is not a Char Clone!

I mean, granted, she's actually a clone, so yay, but she's nothing like Char!

She plays the Quattro dynamic very well in Nanoha Strikers and gets a lot of allusions but yeah I guess your right I shouldnt of used that example there as the parts she covers are all at different times.

Lets see

edited 25th May '11 2:01:24 PM by Raso

Lets see striking ones we should get rid of

Char Clones usually have at least two (usually more) of the following attributes-

• Outfit that is predominantly red in color and/or with a matching red mecha. When his mecha isn't red it will be white or gold.
• Not the main character, but made easy to root for anyways. at least metallic in nature. Alternatively, Cool Shades.''
• Blonde hair/Light-colored hair. maybe strike this it does have trope though.
• Status as The Ace. And if applicable, Ace Pilot.
• Status as The Rival.
• A Father to His Men, noticeably avoiding You Have Failed Me and being sympathetic to his subordinates.
• Being an Enigmatic Minion with his own hidden agenda, capable of betraying his allies at any moment given cause. Magnificent Bastardry is obligatory.
• Since Chars are usually villains, or at the very least Anti-Hero, you can often expect a Redemption Equals Death.
• Fulfilling the Messianic Archetype, inspiring others to follow him in his cause as he leads from the front.
• A recurring joke is that in the original anime, Char's Zaku is described as being three times faster than a regular Zaku*
  ^{the result of a dialogue flub; the actual speed is listed as one-third faster; a Char clone will often reference their speed being multiple times that of the protagonists'.}

• Uses a fake name or Secret Identity.
• Has a younger sister that gets emotionally involved with the hero.
• Has a secret involvement with the protagonist in one way or others. For instance, being his long lost brother or father who is believed to be dead.
• May suffer from Cloning Blues

edited 25th May '11 2:39:26 PM by Raso

Honestly, I think Quattro is a big part of why the Char Clone page is such a mess, as Quattro homages like Harry Ord riff on a largely different set of tropes (Paper-Thin Disguise, Cool Shades, various types of mentor figures) then Char clones like Zechs (Cool Mask, The Rival, Blond Guys Are Evil, The Starcream, etc.). They generally don't have anything in common beyonds Ace Pilot status (and Ace Pilots are a dime a dozen in Real Robot series anyways) and maaaybe the hair color, and even there the implications aren't the same. Trying to jam both lists together results in a large, messy, disjointed list for which a lot of people who very blatantly aren't based on Char will qualify.

I don't think Quattro is really iconic enough to spawn intentional homages/expies outside of Gundam and heavily Gundam-influenced franchises like Super Robot Wars, so it'd probably be best to pare the list of attributes down to the most iconic ones of OYW Char and get rid of every example that doesn't fit that list. Even if we end up just merging it back into the Fountain of Expies, it'll be a more coherent list that way.

Edit: Mmm, reading the entry more carefully there aren't as many Quattro-esque attributes as I thought on the checklist. Rather, the issue seems to be adding in a bunch of things that several blatant Char Clones from latter Gundam series have in common, even if Char himself vaguely embodies them at best or not at all (e.g. Messianic Archtype, Cloning Blues, A Father to His Men, Luke, I Am Your Father). This just dilutes the page down to something more akin to "Three Degrees of Char Aznable" than an anything resembling a trope page.

edited 25th May '11 2:41:46 PM by RandomDude

You have a good point on Quattro he is more the Ace Pilot Mentor all the qualities are still in place in Zeta Gundam we arnt seeing the story from his Rival's perspective which is the key thing.

Cloning Blues really needs to go and Luke, I Am Your Father can probably go too it was added to the character type somewhere down the line. Messianic Archetype and A Father to His Men, is there though the former isnt absolutely required it almost always comes really late in the game generally leading to the series conclusion when it does. (Chars Counterattack)

edited 25th May '11 3:33:38 PM by Raso

I just noticed that Darth Vader IS listed as an example on the page as "another Ur-example". I think that probably shouldn't be there, or at the very least it shouldn't say "another Ur-example".

He is The Rival, Ace Pilot, Cool Mask, Luke, I Am Your Father, Messianic Archetype, Secret Identity, Enigmatic Minion, hidden agenda, Chronic Backstabbing Disorder and moments of Magnificent Bastard with a Redemption Equals Death.

Thats where the issues are coming from though as someone down the line decided to fuse Char and Vader into this trope. probably the reason with the chose two of these thing.

edited 25th May '11 3:58:21 PM by Raso

Finished the mock-up: Char Clone. Completely rewrote the description and edited the examples. The description still seems overly long, but it's already ridiculously dense and I couldn't figure out how to prune it down any more without stripping out useful information. Maybe it just seems too long because the picture is so much bigger than usual?

Much, much better.

That is a much need improvement. My only criticism though, it that there needs to be a sentence or a paragraph, that clearly and precisely says what the trope is not just a list of hypotheticals.

edited 26th May '11 10:51:11 AM by captainpat

Ok now that I like. We can probably get rid of the Luke, I Am Your Father one though it's a leftover from whenever someone fused this with Darth Vader I don't think many examples cover it as it kills the Foe Yay. (I could be wrong though.)

edited 26th May '11 11:05:54 AM by Raso

Isn't that the first paragraph? "Given the sheer number of characters that reference, homage, or flat out are Char with a different name, they eventually became known as Char clones."

No, the Luke, I Am Your Father thing is a legit part of the trope. Well, maybe not as parent/child specifically, but certainly the relationship between them is subject to The Reveal. (The original did this in like the second episode, though later examples tend to play it more conventionally.) I tweaked the description a bit to avoid Luke, I Am Your Father specifically.

The original was "I am your brother" to Sayla. The chances that a clone is related to The Rival are very low.

Are you sure you're not confusing The Rival and The Reveal?

MSG pulls The Reveal early, but a bunch of the clones don't — to the point where The Reveal about being related has become a sign of a Char Clone even though it wasn't used with the original Char!

edited 26th May '11 11:55:10 AM by NativeJovian

A Char Clone is almost never related to the main character, they're usually related to someone the Main Character knows.

So anyway, should we do a crowner, or are we pretty much agreed on the Sandbox version?

Add the part about him being related to someone close to who he is The Rival too and I am peachy. Going to add it to my watch list though.

Looks fantastic to me.

Should we do the swap, and then clean up wicks? Or do we want to wait a bit longer?

That's already in there. "A Long-Lost Relative among the cast, allowing for The Reveal at a dramatically appropriate time. Frequently an Aloof Big Brother as well." Unless you think it should be changed to "among the protagonists" to be more specific? Or "A Long-Lost Relative to one of The Hero's friends"?

edited 26th May '11 12:17:07 PM by NativeJovian

This first paragraph defines the trope but the definition is lost on anyone not familiar with Gundam franchise or Char. It needs to clear define he particular characterization.

The sheer number of "arguably" or "maybe not quite" or other qualifiers on that page really says everything that needs to be said.