Deleted the following Conversation in the Main Page that violated Example Indentation in Trope Lists and Repair, Don't Respond.
- It's not a writing mistake, it's an acknowledgement of both the evolving science around emotional repression, and that Vulcans are not objective about their religious/philosphical beliefs. Bones even admits in Amok Time that the Pon Farr is likely a result of emotional repression, rather than being evidence in favor of it.
"Episode "Critical Care", an Anvilicious episode about health care, has the Doctor kidnapped and sold to a race that allocates medical treatment according to the patient's perceived value to society. Amidst all the expected swipes at real life health care (e.g. letting the cute kid die because he's exceeded his allotment of medicine) we're told the society ended up like this because of a series of natural and social disasters. While the hospital administrator is indeed a heartless ass, nothing refutes his actual point, which is that they don't have enough medical care to go around and have to make hard decisions. The medicines the aforementioned kid needed, e.g., were being used to treat a woman who ran the entire water distribution system for a subcontinent. The Doctor's would-be noble crusade to protect the downtrodden comes off as misguided sentimentality and a huge violation of the Prime Directive."
Altered because the women wasn't being "treated" it was a preventive regime for arterial aging. With the doctor having noted her arteries are in perfect health. And you don't waste your medicine on preventative regime's when people are dying. That itself refutes the idea that the system is because they don't have enough medicine. They're using basically the opposite of a good triage system. Kind of makes it worse though, adding in some of the worst aspects of the for profit healthcare system with the exact opposite of a triage system.
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Should have been a full delete not an alteration, Strawman no longer has a point with that taken into consideration. Especially because some patients are given treatment based on their TAC, just not enough to actually treat them further wasting resources. Teach me to make changes while half asleep.
Editor of Posts
I removed an entry which I thought read too much like a troper objectifying and fetishizing one of the actresses. This was then immediately restored by another troper. I would want tocheck here if anyone else has an opinion on whether to keep it or cut it. The entry in question is the following subentry to They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character:
- Seska is also an example of wasted potential Fanservice. Martha Hacket was stunningly beautiful in her youth, with a sultry, femme fatale look to her that would have been perfect for Seska's character, and could have been worked into Cardassian scaly make up wonderfully. Instead, they just slapped a lumpy, rubber mask over her head that made her look hideous. True, her Cardassian physiology was supposed to be gradually resurfacing... but they seemed to forget to ever make it fully resurface.
Perhaps we can remove the part about the actress being beatiful, and stick to the part of the Cardassian physiology that never fully resurfaced.
Ultimate Secret Wars
We can always do without references to an actress's beauty.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I think maaaaaaaaaybe What The Hell Casting Agency could theoretically apply, if they're taking someone known for their beauty and casting them as someone covered entirely in makeup and prosthetics.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Since a moderator has spoken out in favor of removing the entry, I have now removed it.
2 things about the Hirogen:
-The fact that they do things which human beings see as evil does not exempt them from Blue-and-Orange Morality, in fact, blue and orange cultures often practice such things in fiction.
-Being antagonists does not exempt them of it either
So unless we have either, something that shows them following greyscale morality, some Word of God saying that they are evil, or some proof that the fanon portrayal seen of them as evil Scary Dogmatic Aliens is a vocal minority, too small to be notable, then they qualify for Ron the Death Eater. If it can apply, as the page says, to villians being overvillified, then it can certainly apply to Blue-and-Orange Morality being labelled as evil when it isn't.
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From the description of Ron the Death Eater:
"The result of either shoehorning a good canon character into being a villain or making a villain significantly more evil than in canon is Ron the Death Eater, the inverse of Draco in Leather Pants."
In addition, Ron the Death Eater applies only to fan works or shows-within-shows. Including the Hirogen under Ron the Death Eater is misusing the trope.
As a side note, I propose eliminating the Janeway example as well. Ron the Death Eater can apply to fanfictions of Voyager, but it does not belong on the show's YMMV page.
To your first point, while it doesn't specifically point to Blue-and-Orange Morality being demonized as evil, I think it's at least implied. Regardless, I completely comprehend your second point, but any character that's demonized on forums and the like will almost certainly be demonized in fan fiction.
If we retooled the entires to emphasize fan fiction, rather than fanon, would that work?
Huh.
The "fanworks only" restrictions on Ron the Death Eater apply to the examples on the trope page. There is no restriction at all for examples on YMMV pages.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Are you sure about that, Septimus? The description exclusively mentions fanworks.
I did participate in the TRS that caused that rearrangement. It does not restrict additions to YMMV articles of the main work pages, from what I recall.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Then the description of the page needs changing, as it does not reflect that rearrangement.
In light of what Septimus said, I support keeping the Hirogen under Ron the Death Eater.
The "idiot plot" entry that talks about the "Nothing human" episode. First it is pointed that an hologram of the cardassian Moset is helping to cure a disease, and that others feel wary on him because of the war crimes of the real Moset. Then, to justify why it is an idiot plot, it is pointed that it is not the real Moset but an hologram, so the whole thing is not justified.
There's a problem in that: all that was already acknowledged in-story. Yes, the others did reject the Moset hologram, and others did point that it was just an hologram and not the real dude. It's not an idiot plot, it's just a big "What the hell, hero?" plot (an idiot plot would precisely require that the plot does not realize the idiot parts of it).
It also skips the ending of the episode. Is it correct or not to use medical research completed through unethical means? Janeway left the fate of Moset's hologram on the Doctor's best judgement, and they precisely began a discussion on that very same issue. An idiot plot does not equal "I don't agree with their ideas". Besides, the whole "he does not have memories of the crimes" that could have made the hologram a bit sympathetic was proved wrong at the moment when the doctor decided to erase him: he may not have memories of those crimes, but he has the amoral approach that made him justify them. After all, he has the same personality.
Ultimate Secret Wars
- Moral Event Horizon: Captain Janeway herself very nearly leaps over the Moral Event Horizon in "Equinox". The supposed bad guy, Ransom, is sympathetic by comparison. He only wanted to get his crew home.
... Seriously? I have to ask if this is just a very stupid version of Hate Dumb or someone actually wrote this and did not see the ridiculous irony in justifying Ransom's actions because he wanted to get his crew home. Well, that's a brand new justification for torture and genocide, I must say. Or are we just calling it mass-murder these days?
Please, someone tell me this was just a bad joke so I can erase it? I was planning to put this under Fan Dumb as an example, but I felt I should open the issue to discussion first so I didn't unduly humiliate anyone.
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I would suggest rewriting it. While it was several years since I watched the episode I did read up on it and kinda agree with the one who wrote it (Sf Debris is going to have a fieldday with it). But I also think its rather clumsily written and that it should instead be something like this..
- Arguably Janeway in Equinox {description of why}
While Ransom did several bad things, Janeway seems to go beyond what is neccesary and wise in order to catch him. I will rewatch it and see if I can come up with a better description.
Without love, it cannot be seen.
So you agree that Janeway crossed the Moral Event Horizon in order to catch Ransom? I agree that Janeway did go beyond what is necessary and was really really reckless in order to catch him, but in no way shape or form is that crossing the MEH. Unless the definition has changed somehow.
Despite her conduct being questionable in this two-parter all over, the two things she did which went into the morally grey area were trying to scare one of Ransom's crew members into telling her where the Equinox was by putting him in a room with one of the sentient creatures he helped to mutilate and mass-murder; and letting the sentient creatures take their justice on Ransom by killing him.
Both are morally grey but nowhere near the MEH. The second is actually validated by Starfleet protocol in that Starfleet personnel who have committed a crime - and are found guilty - are to be given over to the species whose jurisdiction applies. I'm sorry but after what Ransom did - mutilation, torture, mass-murder and attempted genocide - I fail to see how or why Janeway should give him sanctuary.
Actually, the fact that if Ransom had done what he did to a race of humanoids he would be under Complete Monster but because they were incorporeal beings fans of this show think he should've been forgiven because he regretted what he did by the end... that doesn't sit well with me at all. It actually makes me feel sick.
After reading up on Moral Event Horizon and a bit more on the episode I see your point and agree with you. Though I think there should be a trope for it as she was really close in crossing the line but was pulled back/was stopped before it and only realized it afterwards. Not So Different maybe?
Without love, it cannot be seen.
Yeah, I still think calling an MEH for Janeway in this episode is fairly extremenote. However, I think you are absolutely right, Janeway was definitely reckless (dangerously so) and seriously toed the line there, so Not So Different is a really good choice and would work well.
Just scrolling through Not So Different I was reminded of a couple other tropes which might fit for this episode as well. He Who Fights Monsters for Janeway, maybe? (She does have a habit of slipping into morally grey territory when she's fighting someone with evil intentions, so I thought this might fit somewhere on the main page?)
And Sympathy for the Devil for Ransom, particularly considering his Sympathetic POV. (I was thinking he might fit under Death Equals Redemption or Redemption Equals Death but I'm not sure which considering he died in order to help make amends...?)
One last thing (I promise!). I was thinking about putting Ransom under Moral Event Horizon for the whole mass-murder/torture/experimentation of sentient beings for fuel issue, but I'm fairly biased in that I really do think that the aliens had every right to kill Ransom considering what he did. I would really like a more objective viewpoint regarding whether this trope is actually appropriate when applied to him. So...What do you think? Should I add him or not?
Removed this from the main section after the trope was cut. Not sure if a place for this text can be found on this tab.
Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere. Hide / Show Replies