Discussion UnintentionallyUnsympathetic / LiveActionTV

Trying to clean up the entry for Hopper under Stranger Things. This is what we currently have:

• In the first two seasons, Hopper can come off like this to those who aren't fond of his short temper and tendencies to get violent with people in order to further his investigations, to say nothing of selling Eleven and the other kids' location out to the lab agents in the first season finale and his harsh treatment of Eleven early into Season 2 coming off as emotionally abusive. Season 3 doesn't help matters when he acts very possessive over Eleven, threatens Mike, and is condescending and belittling towards Joyce.
  • For others, it's different: they're tolerable of Hopper's terrible behavior in seasons 1 and 2 because while he was impulsive and did have a tendency to act like a jerk, he also happens to be quite good at reading people, has moments of reflection over his rash decisions, and shows empathy for other people's feelings. This disappeared in Season 3, where he's more like a cannonball blasting through, trying to get what he wants with absolutely no regard for anyone else and no awareness or consideration for the pain he is causing, and only cares about how things will affect him personally.
• In fact, a lot of Hopper's behavior in season 3 is seen by Pop Culture Detective as Unfortunate Implications that demonstrate toxic masculinity and tied in with this trope.
  • First off, Hopper is bothered by the relationship between his adoptive daughter Jane/Eleven and Mike. Joyce suggests that he have a heart-to-heart with the kids and discuss it out. Instead of taking Joyce's very reasonable advice, Hopper deviates from the plan by luring Mike into his car to talk to him. But what starts as Twerp Sweating gets much worse shortly afterwards. He yells, intimidates and threatens Mike because he and Eleven have a romantic relationship. Mike is clearly very much afraid of Hopper because he's a fourteen-year-old teenager, and the chief of police is known to be very harsh. When Mike is too scared the next day to meet Eleven, Hopper sings happily that no one dares to mess with him. You could argue that Mike was a bit arrogant to him before, but because Hopper often did not treat Mike well, Mike does not really have a reason to respect Hopper. It can almost be seen as a karmic punishment that Joyce stands him up in the next episode when they were supposed to go out on a date.
  • What also makes him lose sympathy points is that Hopper seems deeply satisfied with the results of his actions. He never looks at Eleven and thinks "I really messed this up." It feels like he is more about exerting his dominance over an actual child than he is about being a good parent. It is one thing to lose your temper, revert back to your old ways, and then show genuine regret over the results of your actions - that's trying your best - it is a whole other thing when you chose to act in an aggressive and abusive manner, and then show genuine pleasure at the chaos you have caused, suggesting that this was never about trying for Eleven, but about making Mike to be submissive towards him.
  • Later in the season, Hopper beats up his boss, Mayor Larry Kline, and even threatens to cut his finger if he does not give him the information he wants. Sure, Larry is arrogant, corrupt and an asshole, but what Hopper does with him is borders on torture. Hopper is supposed to be someone who proves that Good Is Not Nice, this scene makes him particularly unsympathetic. Seasons 1 and 2 Hopper would never do something like this, nor would he get his way so easily.^note In this particular instance, some have noted that Hopper could've kept his sympathy points had they written the scene so that Joyce intervened before Hopper could torture Kline, and thus the investigation moved forward because Kline decided Joyce was more trustworthy than Hopper. The show could still have the same "Hey, we make a good team" follow-up, with Hopper insisting that he was just playing bad cop so Joyce could play the good cop, but it wouldn't look like Hopper was right all along to be a torture-happy maniac.
• Hopper's attitude towards Joyce.
  • When talking to Joyce about the Mike/Eleven situation, Hopper jokes that he could simply make Mike disappear and as chief of police, cover it up. He doesn't seem to remember that this is exactly what happened to Joyce in Season 1, making the moment less "black comedy" and more outright cruelty, and the show never addresses this.
  • Joyce tries to explain why she stood Hopper up (visiting Mr. Clarke), but he refuses to listen, repeatedly saying "You’ve outdone yourself, Joyce!" like she’s descended to a new level of crazy, and makes Hopper look like he has a sore ego, which is a very sharp contrast to him being supportive to Joyce in seasons 1 and 2.
  • He has the nerve to accuse her of "inventing things to get worked up about because god forbid any of us move on!" as if he is either oblivious or completely forgotten that she's still not over the trauma of Bob's death and Will's experiences.
  • When they go to the lab where Bob died, when Joyce is frozen staring at the spot where that happened, Hopper hesitates and seems very impatient. His "are you okay? do you wanna wait in the car?" is rather peremptory. Then they get to the room where the gate was. He touches the empty wall and says ‘nobody’s home’ in a pretty scathing tone. Joyce clearly has severe PTSD (she literally has a flashback that we see on screen while facing this wall) but Hopper doesn’t seem to care. He’s treating her with a lot of impatience, patronizing her like she’s a child.
  • When Joyce and Hopper bring Alexei to Murray Bauman's, Joyce says of Murray "he’s not eccentric, he’s certifiable." That's not true (given Jonathan and Nancy's experience with him in season 2), and it's hypocritical since others have dismissed her as crazy in the past. But Hopper's response is to shut her down so completely he loses a lot of sympathy, by saying "Glass houses. You know, pot calling the kettle black." Hopper, the only person who never called Joyce crazy in seasons 1 and 2, and was never dismissive of her either in those two seasons, basically just called Joyce certifiable and a hypocrite. He’s suddenly decided he can’t trust her intuition anymore and that she’s just as crazy as they all say. This line was so bad that at least one person felt the need to write a fanfic where Joyce calls him out on his attitude.
  • Because of all this, many felt Hopper's "death" at the end of the season didn't atone for the damage he caused. Basically, he got away with breaking up Mike and Eleven, and because he "died", he will never need to face the consequences of that or apologize for it. He got away with acting incredibly abusive and insensitive towards Joyce and, in the end actually got a date out of it. He never had to answer for any of his actions. He never learned anything or grew from it like he had in previous seasons. There was no evolution for his character, no acknowledgment of his mistakes. Instead, the audience got a letter that was supposed to be written before everything onscreen happened, and the intended audience reaction is supposed to be one of sympathy. The audience is supposed to feel bad for him because he died, even though his journey this season doesn't warrant that.

I'm changing it to this, which probably would get the point across faster without sounding like rambling:

• In the first two seasons, Hopper can come off like this to those who aren't fond of his short temper and tendencies to get violent with people in order to further his investigations, to say nothing of selling Eleven and the other kids' location out to the lab agents in the first season finale and his harsh treatment of Eleven early into Season 2 coming off as emotionally abusive. Season 3 doesn't help matters, with the show's reliance on 1980s "action hero" tropes causing Hopper to come off like a walking bundle of relationship red flags.

Thoughts?

Edited by dmcreif The cold never bothered me anyway Hide / Show Replies

• Ellaria Sand devolved from being a sympathetic character to one of the most hated characters in the show. Yes, we are all horrified and saddened with Oberyn’s death as well. But she wants to kill Myrcella because of her Lannister blood despite that she had nothing to do with her lover’s death and Oberyn volunteered on the trial by combat which she herself had witnessed. She succeeded by poisoning her which angered Jaime and Cersei. Then, she and the Sand Snakes killed Oberyn’s brother and nephew because they’re weak and don’t deserve to rule Dorne. These actions were against Oberyn’s wishes particularly the last one which is considered to be kinslaying, one of the greatest sins in Westerosi society. This is contrast to her book portrayal where she’s the Only Sane Woman who knew that pursuing revenge against the Lannisters will not bring Oberyn back and refused to participate in it.

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I don't get where is the "unintentionally" part.

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• The title character of Jessica Jones comes off as this. While her history with Killgrave isn't exactly something to put you in a good mood, people have a hard time sympathizing with her because of how much of a Jerkass she acts throughout the series. One particularly grating moment was when she confronted a woman who had a hatred for superheroes. When she reveals the reason why (the Avengers failed to save a loved one of her's during Loki's rampage), rather than see things from her perspective, Jessica explodes on her, brings up her dead parents, and tells the woman to just get over it when she herself is still struggling to get over her own personal issues. Not helping matters is that in a flashback before she met Killgrave, she was shown to be a bit of a Jerkass then as well by slacking off at work and blackmailing her supervisor into giving her a fat severance check.

The Ron the Death Eater way this was written really bothers me. The woman was trying to kill her and Jessica didn't even want to kill Kilgrave, jerkasses don't look after their friends getting sexually harassed, and "while her history with Killgrave isn't exactly something to put you in a good mood" is pretty vile considering it traumatized her.

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