Discussion Main / Transgender

That might be more appropriate for https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/Transgender

You're right that it's inclusion as a "gender-bender" trope is problematic.

But I like that it's listed as a trope because that means there are all these examples listed, and I've used that as a way to discover new media with trans representation. There is a Useful Notes for Transgender, but Useful Notes pages don't allow that kind of listing so removing the Transgender trope page would actually be a disservice to the community.

Long story short, it's a mess. It took years just to convince a mod that "transgender" was the right term instead of certain outdated medical terminology

We need to get a thread in long term projects going at some point, TBH.

I guess listing it as a trope is fine then but there should still be pages for individual trans tropes even if they were listed on this page in lieu of a dedicated index.

Bi the way was cut, though. I'd like to have a list of works with bisexual characters, but bisexuality itself is not a trope. I don't think being trans is either. I guess it's nice that we have this, though since it helps people find good representation. It would be really cool if we had a wiki specifically for examples of lgbt+ representation, maybe with reviews so that people can know if it's good or not.

[Replied to the wrong thread]

I'd like to know that, too.

I get that it's a lot of work to change all the links, but the TRS thread said, we already have "transgender" redirect to this page, so swapping the page name with the redirects wouldn't even break the existing links.

It was made clear in both the TRS thread and the previous discussion that the terminology is offensive and outdated. Looking through this page makes it obvious that this isn't the first time the issue has come up. The fact that the mods are so stubborn about keeping the page name, even in the face of multiple sources and individuals insisting that it's an issue, does not come across well.

Yeah, I’m thinking of reaching out beyond TV Tropes, maybe to GLADD or some such organization if they’re being so obtuse about this. I mean, this is a media site.

(TRS thread author here)

From what I understand, the locking is an automated procedure - every TRS thread starts out as locked until enough other tropes are dealt with that the next batch gets opened and worked on. Note that there are currently 16 locked threads in TRS that are older than mine, so I expect this may still take some time. While I absolutely hope that we'll get to Transgender renaming soon and that it doesn't get shot down (again...), I understand that this trope is just one among thousands in the Wiki and has to wait for its turn.

Plus, I consider it a somewhat hopeful sign that the thread wasn't immediately moved to the morgue with a "not this again" note attached while 5 threads with a later posting date have been disposed of there by now.

So in the end, we'll just have to wait and see. Or, if you want to wait a little less, work on other TRS tropes so they'll be done sooner. Having looked through some stuff, there are still active threads from June 2017.

Hopefully it won't be too much longer of a wait. The points you brought up were good, and countering the main "b-but all those link redirects" argument they've been using with statistical data was also a good move. I'm glad to be one of those transgender persons who's argued that the term is offensive, and the proof is all on this page in that big discussion below.

Thank you for the flowers. But again: 16 Repair Shop tropes ahead of us, if they're going chronologically. Depending on how many of those (and the currently active ones) get approved and are not solvable with a simple rewording, we might be here for some time.

Okay, so it turns out I misinterpreted that policy and threads should normally be opened relatively quickly. I've contacted the mods to ask about this one, but so far have not received a response. Let's see where that goes.

The TRS doesn't look like it's going anywhere. It's been stuck in Locked mode for a month and 10/1 will be discarded.

That's the odd thing. Apparently, there was a lot of work done on the 11th of March - many threads got opened and some got sent to the morgue. Transsexual was at least looked at because I remember the title was not a pothole when I created it, but it was neither opened nor killed. So if I had to guess, there's no consensus among the moderation about what to do with it. Of course, an offical status update would still be appreciated.

Sooo... another one for the morgue (thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1517854368017407800&page=1#1 ). For anyone who's interested in the reasons:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1426750858042389600&page=11#264

Septimus Heap: "The problem with that thread is that a) people need to spend less time creating threads and more working on existing issues, especially given that renaming that trope would require over 1100 edits, and b) it is not clear whether the transgender/transsexual name issue has an established terminology yet."

I'll leave that on its own because right now, I'd like to write things about this decision that I might come to regret later on, except for this: If the thread had been opened and approved seven weeks ago when I started it, I'm reasonably certain the renaming and editing would be done by now, even if just one or two people from these discussion pages had helped do the work.

That being said, while the trope Transsexual will apparently not be renamed into Transgender too soon, Transgender remains an accepted redirect and alternate name. Meaning if any of you find an occurence of Transsexual in this wiki that would more correctly fit Transgender, it would apparently be acceptable to edit it appropriately.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/relatedsearch.php?term=Main/Transsexual

^ I've seen a lot of people use UsefulNotes.Transgender instead of the main Transsexual page.

"Not clear the transgender/transsexual name issue has an established terminology yet" lmao did they read any of what was even said? Looks like the cis are at it again. Ugh.

If it's link changes they want, it's link changes they're going to get. If anyone has the time to, I implore you to help destroy their literal only misguided reasoning behind keeping this blatantly offensive name by editing and renaming links around the website. I know what I'll be doing.

I've started on it (using the helpful URL Cifer gave above) and will do more as I have time.

Are you sure you're doing it correctly? The number is 300 articles higher than when I brought it down to nearly 1k last night. What you want to do is increase the number on this one:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/relatedsearch.php?term=Main/Transgender

While decreasing it on here

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/relatedsearch.php?term=Main/Transsexual

Once the two have roughly the same numbers, our call for change might actually be taken seriously by these mods who apparently refuse to listen to anything other than these numbers. Though of course, the ideal goal is to bring it down as close to 0 as possible for "transsexual" redirects and as close over 1k as possible for "transgender" redirects.

Edit: Unless those redirects came from Main/TS being suddenly redirected to by Main/TG, which I just noticed.

That's possible; "Main/Transsexual" was just over 1000 when I started on it this morning.

Well, I've got the redirect count to up over 500 so far! We can do this!

I'm still honestly just baffled at the blatant transphobia the moderation team has been displaying on this particular issue. Literally nobody proactively wants the name "transsexual" to remain, to the point that it isn't even used on its own named page, and they have the absolute gall to say that this issue isn't a well-documented problem despite several people's calls to the contrary.

If they still refuse to change this after we finish switching all those redirects, then it's hopeless unless an actual trans person hops on board the mod team to do so and maybe tell them how messed up it is that they think their opinion is somehow superior to that of SEVERAL actual trans people who have spoken up about this repeatedly. It honestly just makes me so angry when cis people think they have the right to speak over trans voices on trans issues while ignoring said voices completely.

I've brought it up to around 540, I'm doing a little at a time but am usually too busy to do more. Still, we've upped "transgender" redirects by roughly twice what it was before, so that's a good thing. If we keep at this for a few more days, then we'll be successful.

Actually, we do have a transgender moderator.

FYI - user zephyran has been blocked. She didn't get any specific reasons, but given the links sent to her, her edits could have been interpreted as violating one or several rules.

@Septimus What is their opinion regarding the matter?

@moppa Since you appear to be in contact with her: Does her ban have a specified time length?

@Everyone Soo, next try ... however sanctioned or unsanctioned, I think it should be obvious by now that the energy for renaming the wicks is definitely available and comes from tropers that are not usually part of TRS work, thus not detracting from the work on other articles. That leaves point b) of the criticism: Is there an established terminology? As another troper has pointed out, the sources for showing that Transsexual is often considered pejorative are... shall we say, capable of further development. I suggest assembling a more comprehensive list in my sandbox (here). Right now, I've got the obvious wikipedia article, GLAAD and transstudent.org. However, since I am not a native speaker of English and don't know which organizations are how important, I find it somewhat difficult to evaluate what sources are considered "legitimate". So if any of you find articles, faqs and especially papers pointing in that direction, please add them to the list.

She told me she submitted a request in the forums. She just asked me to sign up on here and let you folks know what was going on in case it’s a permaban

There is now a rename topic in Short-Term Projects. Please use that to coordinate the wick transplant.

We won't censor the very existence of offensive words. That's not how things work on a reference site.

You don't have to censor anything, we're just dropping an outdated term.

Well... it's done. Turns out that in the end, we needed all of three days, plus the pre-work done by Geheimnis and zephyran. Thank you to all who helped make this happen, from the first discussion page inquiry to the last wick edit!

Following the edit history, the description was changed by the troper Liliet in 26th Apr '15.

That's better, but the trope name itself should still be changed to transgender, and transsexual should redirect to it, rather than vice versa, which is what it is now.

From what I've seen below it looks like it was proposed and rejected, but I also think the trope name should be changed to Transgender, with transsexual being as you already pointed out, an outdated (and to many of us offensive) term. Hopefully with enough of a push for it, this can be changed to reflect the preferred term (and as an actual trans person I will back this effort whenever possible).

Also in case it needs to be said, Transsexual is indeed viewed negatively by a lot of us because it implies it's either a sexual orientation or somehow tied to a sexual orientation and thus to sexual organs, while the word Transgender has no inherent connection, with Gender and Sexual Orientation both being separate unrelated identities, thus letting people know we're still trans whether there's change physically or not.

I'd push for it as well, not only because of those reasons but because the Useful Notes page is "Transgender" while the main is "Transsexual", whereas other tropes with Useful Notes pages have the same name (see: Cult, Trigger).

it's been repeatedly rejected from the trope repair shop—at least once because a cisgender moderator decided he didn't think "transsexual" was an unacceptable/offensive word to transgender people

still, i think it's worth posting it again

^^ Actually, it's generally better for Useful Notes pages to have distinct names so that people don't conflate the two and treat the useful notes page as a trope (see how Mai.Trigger has been moved to Main.Trauma Button for that exact reason).

^ Generally, moves for large pages don't happen unless there's evidence of serious misuse, and this page has a huge number of inbounds and a lot of wicks so the criteria for moving it is really high. In the past I've been passively against moving it since it's essentially making a special case for this page but the request has been made so many times at this point that I just say do it... but that said, the people clamoring for it should help out in the work of moving the wicks (there's over a thousand). If someone thinks it's a problem enough to demand change but not help out, I'd be rather miffed.

Incidentally, even the Useful Notes talks about Transsexual vs Transgender and straight-up states that "transsexual" is a more stigmatising, outdated term and most of us prefer the term "transgender".

I, and almost every single person that I know who are also trans, hate the word "transsexual" and find it demeaning, offensive, and outdated. I don't mind the concept of having the Main/ and Useful Notes/ pages having different names, but in this context, I think it's better to have them both called Transgender until or unless a better alternative to "transsexual" is discussed and decided on.

As to wicks, there are a pretty huge amount of wicks for this page. It's definitely something that can be done, it's not quite an unreasonable amount. But you are right that it's going to be a bit of a barrier to having the name changed.

The word Trans serves as a better alternative?

Definitely ought to at least be a redirect. I'm surprised it's not. Also going to throw out Transgendered since that's clearly an adjective form (thus in a character sheet describing a character, it'd fit in pretty well)?

"Trans" is a good alternative but usually only when the context is already clear. As a page name or anything like that, I personally wouldn't recommend it, but that's just me. It probably needs to be looked into more or discussed more with more people.

"Transgendered" adjective form is also considered wrong, to some offensive. It gives a connotation of being a disorder, and that the word "transgender" is a verb (thus giving unfortunate implications relating to physical transition, which the trans community wants to move away from) when it is already an adjective, so it isn't really necessary.

According to GLAAD, "The word transgender never needs the extraneous “ed” at the end of the word. In fact, such a construction is grammatically incorrect."

I can see where the mistake can easily be made, and according to Joanne Herman, Huff Po, "I have found that whenever “transgendered” is being used, it is usually by a person who is not transgender, or by an organization wanting to be inclusive of transgender people, but not yet having a transgender person involved."

It's not something you really know unless you're either trans yourself or very involved with the trans community enough to know these nuances, but for future understanding, it's generally considered to be the same as how, for example, people back in the 50s would say "coloured" but today we now say "people of colour". When it comes to "transgendered" vs "transgender person", we really don't mind the latter term; the former just has so many unfortunate implications.

^ See that? Exactly the kind of information that Useful Notes pages are useful for.

I agree that the page should be titled "Transgender", with "Transsexual", "Transgendered", and any other outdated or incorrect terms being redirected to it, for the reasons Geheimnis Goth gave. Not just saying this as a trans person, but also as someone who wants to see TV Tropes be as open and welcoming to all fans as possible.

I mean, it is indeed useful info for Useful Notes, but these are also legitimate grounded arguments that can be used to convince and/or educate others, including, hopefully, cisgender mods who wouldn't otherwise know any better.

I agree with zephyran, it's not just something I want to change because I'm trans, but also because I would like this site to be more inclusive and welcoming, and having the article that covers people like us being incorrectly and offensively named "Transsexual" is absolutely not that. It has wicks equalling little over 1000, which is a lot but not impossible. And it's most certainly worth it to keep this site up with the times.

i agree with goth and zephyran, yeah. i guess we'll need to find actual external references showing that the term transsexual is outdated, inaccurate, and in many cases offensive, because the word of actual transgender users does not appear to be enough proof

Agreeing with a rename here (not just because I'm transgender myself). Transsexual is factually incorrect since your "sex" (i.e. biological chromosomes) is the same, your gender identity is not, and doesn't change whether you physically transition or not. It's just confusing right now.

There's actually a lot of discussion right now on the nature of sex and chromosomes themselves and how they shouldn't be defined as a rigid concept like "male body" or "female body" (this is brought up in the Terminology folder) but that's a topic for another discussion.

How would one go about submitting this to the Trope Repair Shop? The work can definitely be put in easily and it this page isn't too far gone on wicks to be entirely un-fixable. There's plenty of sound arguments with sources and more, and I don't know if the previous ones were made by actual trans people, but if an actual trans person like any of us who've posted here make our voices heard there, with the sources to back it up for even the most unshakeable of cisgender mods, we can hopefully make a convincing argument in favour of changing the page name. After all, TV Tropes has dealt with far worse (Exactly What it Says on the Tin comes to mind).

^^ If we're going "factually correct," I think that a stronger argument is that, medically speaking, one is only considered transsexual if they've begun the gender-reassignment process.

As stated, I don't think "transsexual" is even applicable at all. Your biological sex is based on your chromosomes. Until we can actually change those with, uffff I dunno, Nano Machines for example, the word just doesn't have any validity at all.

Chromosomes aren't the end-all be-all anymore, though. Yes, the word "transsexual" doesn't have any validity, but there's really no such thing as a true "biological sex". The idea erases people born with XY chromosomes who grow up still with ovaries and all the "female" parts one wouldn't associate with them, and the same for those born with XX who produce more testostone naturally. Then there exist people with XXY or XYY or some other combination. And talking about the idea of a set-in-stone "biological sex" erases the entire existence of people who are intersex in general, and science has discovered that there's actually much more to determining someone's sex than just the base XX or XY stuff we're taught about in 6th grade.

Which is why I would avoid thinking about things as "biological" and more as a socio-psychological thing instead, because often, children born a certain way will be changed at birth to match what society perceives to be properly male or female (there literally exists a ruler to determine whether genitals should be chopped or not if they're not considered the right size), without the child's consent, and often this gets ignored and erased. There's plenty of people living their lives right now who have NO idea that they're intersex or have the "wrong" chromosomes than they think they do, all because of decisions made at birth.

This argument is a bit of a tangent, and I apologise for it, but I do want to educate where I can on all the most current scientific findings relating to trans people and extending to people who are intersex. "Transsexual" isn't just wrong because you can't change chromosomes, it's wrong because sex chromosomes don't even have a full say in determining what a person's body will be like, and is thus entirely removed from the equation on how to classify a trans person. It's the reason we say things now like "*Assigned* Male/Female at Birth" rather than "born male/female", because sex chromosomes don't have as much say as what the doctor/your parents assigned you to be at birth based on your genitalia, which aren't always 100% binary.

So back to the title, it seems there's been a recurring and consistent call for several years from many tropers to change the title page to "Transgender" to reflect current language. I'd also be in favor of it, considering how outdated and offensive the term "Transsexual" is now (much like uncritically using the words "an Oriental" or "Negro"). What needs to be done to have that happen?

I've made two TRS threads in the past about this but it's considered a non-issue. The only reason I could find is:

While we do occasionally rename tropes if the names are offensive, it's an uncommon thing and the OP is not giving evidence that this name is that heinous. And we do require proof of a problem before a TRS. So declining.

While it isn't on the same level as calling someone the N word or K word or anything other horrible slurs like those, it is still a pretty offensive word to a lot of people. What more proof do they need? Do they need an actual trans person to walk up to them in person and slap them in the face with a book entitled "Transsexual Is Offensive: Stop Using It"?

Well, I'll add my voice, so at least they can't say they haven't been told:

The word "transsexual" is offensive to me. Please stop using it.

No. And that's not how it works. You can ask people to "consider", not "do what I say just because I say please".

Then perhaps it’s time all transgender site members and their allies boycott the site, if it’s admins insist on referring to us using an offensive term.

There is now a rename topic in Short-Term Projects. Please use that to coordinate the wick transplant.

We won't censor the very existence of offensive words. That's not how things work on a reference site.

Actually, I just found the transgender page. I don't thing that both pages need to exist.

Though, I would definitely either take "tanny" off, or state that it's a slur. Because it is a slur but most cisgender people don't seem to know that (or care).

I am fairly dubious on this effort. I'd like to see you discuss it before changing things unilaterally - as far as I know, transgender and transsexual are both accepted terms.

I'm not really sure what there is to discuss. I've been apart of the transgender activist movement for about five years now, and ever since I've joined the term has been considered to be "not ideal". As more time passed (and transgender became a more and more popular substitute) it's started to be viewed as both rude and offensive. Any credible source explaining LGBT+ issues only has transsexual as a foot note of, "This is what the older generations called these people, but the word is no considered out dated and offensive". Besides, the transgender page has a much more in-depth explanation anyway, including the side note that transsexual is no longer correct usage.

Ah so. Well, I have never heard of transsexual to be offensive, and I see that Wikipedia has two different pages for it. With that in mind I'll have to say no to these edits.

A one word (or, really, two word edit, as transgender is an adjective and transsexual is a noun) edit to be more inclusive and maintain political correctness?

I, too, find it jarring that the page is still titled "Transexual" - especially since the very first word, in bold font, of the article is the more-inclusive "transgender".

Transsexual is a term that is most often used to refer to a transgender person who has undergone some form of gender-affirming surgery. While it's by no means an "un-PC" term, it is a more specific one, when the article itself applied to the entire spectrum of transgender topics.

I appreciate that the Useful Notes page is listed under the "Transgender" banner, I just wish that this page could also be brought in line with that one. Especially given that my argumentation for "transgender" versus "transsexual" is echoed in that article, but not followed through on the main page, which seems a bit... odd.

Might be something to ask for here.

If I recall correctly, transsexual refers to a sexual preference towards transgender people.

I've added a proposal to the Trope Repair Shop.

Aaaaaand the proposal was point-blank rejected, and apparently this is not the first time...

really, despite the "cultural" meaning of gender being one of the possiblble meaning of sexuality following the wiktionary , the only definition of transsexual there involves change of the biological gender.

So, by now the entire article has been (correctly, IMO) rewritten to transgender, but the main lemma is still Transsexual with Transgender only linking to it. Why?

Use They/Them. It's gender neutral, and so works for pretty much any situation.

PS. (For some reason, a lot of people assume that They/Them for a singular person isn't grammatically correct, but it totally is. People might point out that while you say "He goes to the store", you wouldn't say "They goes to the store". It's just the grammar working slightly differently, it's "They *go* to the store in this case.

I'm mainly just clarifying that in the PS because, again, people tend to assume the wrong thing sometimes. I hope it makes sense!)

That word is considered a slur by most trans women (though not quite as bad as the T-slur. Like the relationship between the n-word and the word "negro") and I think this dehumanizing nature should be highlighted, or the word removed entirely.

I've only ever seen trap used either in fetish porn or as a derogatory way to refer to people who don't abide by gender roles. Given that the very description says it's used by drag queens (who aren't trans) and it links to knowyourmeme of all things, I think it can safely be deleted.

I agree. One of the things that's really shaped my personal writing is the relationship between published literature with non-binary characters and then the way those characters are described on here. It's a very touchy subject, and one of the things that worries me about it, is that their is no trope for "male character" or "female character" or "black guy" while there are tropes like "Action Guy" and tropes that evoke both a gender and the role / personality of the character. So I think there should be a collection of non-binary tropes. But considering that their isn't even one... It's a bit of a train wreck. Though it's also the issue that finally pushed me to join this website, as it's one that I want to see done right and respectfully.

Seems like it would fit.

Is it a "Visual Novel?" I think we have different and/or unsettled ways of filing those (there's a Visual Novels section on this page, but I'm not sure there should be.)

As for Wendy Carlos, feel free to add her as an example!

Naoto dressed like a man and tried to disguise her voice (poorly). For the most part? Her shadow talked about how she felt disrespected or wasn't taken seriously. Being a detective is a man's business, no one's going to listen to a high schooler, much less a girl, or at least that's how she saw it.

So it sounds like she wouldn't really fit this trope, then?

From what I can tell, no.

There's a lot of disagreement among fans about whether Naoto actually is trans, but as far as I know there's not a definite answer given in game, but it seems to point more towards that she's not. The general consensus is that she's some form of gendequeer, but its' hard to pin down.

I wouldn't consider Transamerica to be an good example for Easy Sex Change, I just found the content to be very stereotypical. For example, the way Bree walks and talks and wears makeup feels to be designed to highlight her inherit masculinity, and made the character seem much more like a characterture than an actual transsexual woman.

Also, the whole plot with her therapist is a good example for Did Not Do The Research, as the WPATH SOC (also called the 'Standards of Care', the guidelines used by many health care professionals to determine who can/cannot have genital surgery) do not mention anything about family relations. If Bree had been living full-time as long as the movie seemed to imply, it would have been much easier for her to find other therapists and acquire the letter she needed than to embark on the adventure that was required for the plot.

Reading the Degrassi article, I found out Adam is FtM (exact words in the article are "Adam was born Gracie").