Ask The Tropers

It's...complicated. Is the character in Dead of Summer referred to as being "transsexual"? If so, then the example is just describing the character the way the work does. If not, then it probably should be changed.

As a person who haven't watch the show myself, I don't know.

I don't think a cis bisexual person playing a transgender person is a valid example of Queer Character, Queer Actor anyway. According to the description, the actor's identity has to be the same.

Yeah, you're right. Perhaps I should remove the last sentence about Drew actor. Thank you.

Generally transsexual is only used now by older trans people who consider it part of their identity, or to specifically refer to someone who's medically transitioned (rarely, since it's also considered offensive).

Transgender was coined because we don't like being defined by medical procedures.

^ Like I said, if it's what the work uses then we should also use it for accuracy's sake, but if it's not, then it definitely has to change. I'm talking generally at this point; the current example is misuse anyway.

Unless we're directly quoting the work, we don't need to use the same verbiage it uses. If we're writing an independent description, we should use words that reflect well on the wiki and are uncontroversial. For instance, even if a gay character refers to himself in a work as "a big flaming [f-word]", we don't need to write an entry that says, "So-and-so is portrayed by a straight actor, but is a [f-word]". The only reason we'd use it is if we're directly quoting it, such as "So-and-so is, in his own words, a 'flaming f-word'".

I mean...there's a difference there. The "big flaming f-word" example is just using a slur that still technically means the same thing as the non-slur version, so substituting "gay" maintains the exact same meaning.

But Transsexsual and Transgender, at least from what I understand, aren't exactly the same thing, and it'd be inaccurate to call a canonically "Transsexual" character "Transgender" just because it's the more accepted term. It's not accurate to the character at that point because you're calling them something they're technically not, even if the work is using offensive terminology. If this is wrong, then I get it, but as far as I've been taught...

Worth bringing up that Transgender's main title was Transsexual for years and it took years of debate that "transgender" is the broader, more common, and less offensive phrase today before the official name was changed.

^^ Yes, but of the two words, "Transgender" is the most unambiguously inoffensive. It would not be "inaccurate" to a call a character that is called in the canon transgender rather than transsexual because the former is a more broad term for the latter. A transsexual person is also transgender, even if a transgender person may not be transsexual.

It's like the old saying: "not all animals are cats, but all cats are animals".

I guess that's fair. It's not exactly the same thing but it does cover the same concept, so yeah. You've got a point.

I'm not sure this is accurate, but my understanding has been that "transsexual" refers to someone for whom being a gender other than their birth-assigned gender is more along the lines of a fetish, or otherwise has a stronger sexual element to it, than a facet of identity the way "transgender" is.

^ You might be thinking of "Transvestite", but I might also not know what a "Transvestite" is and I could be entirely wrong. These terms can be confusing, especially when two of them are offensive and nobody uses them, making it harder to actually know what they're intended to mean.

It's easier to grasp once you understand why the terms became offensive. Transgender supplanted transsexual because bigots and transphobes started trying to discredit anyone who hadn't fully gone through with HRT, top surgery and bottom surgery, or who fails to "pass" as a conventionally-attractive cisgender person. Not every trans person can, wants or can afford to go through the various transitions or procedures, so this type of erasure was highly problematic. Also, "transsexual" also aligned with the Trans Equals Gay and All Gays are Promiscuous stereotypes, implying that gender identity is a type of "sexuality" or fetish.

For all these reasons, and maybe others I've not heard of, "transsexual" has become seen as an obsolete term, and potentially offensive.

Oh yeah, I understand completely why it's offensive, it's just harder to remember the exact nuances in the words if you don't ever hear the other ones used. It can be easy to forget what they mean- I know they're offensive and often inaccurate, but the full history of the words is lost on me at times, and I took a history class on this stuff!

Transsexual is a much more narrowly-defined subset of transgender. It's not inherently offensive, and there are valid reasons for someone self-identifying as such, but it's very limiting. It'd be similar to labeling every LGB+ person under the category of "Gay", when that would exclude and has been used to discriminate against bi/pan and aroace people.

Thank you guys for explaining what's a transsexual and why is it offensive nowadays. Also I'm sorry for causing a debate in here.

Don't be sorry, debates are useful to learn things.

Ok thank you.

For what it's worth I think I did have transsexual mixed up with transvestite in my head there.

V Right. My understanding was based on there being a distinction for when such things were sexual vs when they weren't.

Also for what it’s worth, "transvestite" itself is considered outdated and "crossdresser" is more favored today. It's also not always sexual.

"Transsexual" is not so much offensive as obsolete in concept. It implies changing sex from one to another, which for decades was the only transition recognised by most doctors. "Transgender" acknowledged the broader forms of gender divergence, including varying medical transitions; because at heart it is about gender identity, sex is only one possible facet of dysphoria. In principle, anyone not cis is transgender whatever their transition status. It may also have been to separate it from terms about sexuality.

Perhaps the GLADD media guide can be of some help.

“ Transgender (adj.) An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. People under the transgender umbrella may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms - including transgender. Some of those terms are defined below. Use the descriptive term preferred by the person. Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to bring their bodies into alignment with their gender identity. Some undergo surgery as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and a transgender identity is not dependent upon physical appearance or medical procedures. Transsexual (adj.) An older term that originated in the medical and psychological communities. Still preferred by some people who have permanently changed - or seek to change - their bodies through medical interventions, including but not limited to hormones and/or surgeries. Unlike transgender, transsexual is not an umbrella term. Many transgender people do not identify as transsexual and prefer the word transgender. It is best to ask which term a person prefers. If preferred, use as an adjective: transsexual woman or transsexual man.”

In the Latin World people use Transsexual to refer to people that underwent operation(s) to align themselves with their chosen gender while Transgender are people that just identify themselves with a different gender than their birth gender.

Closing as resolved.