During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The wifi here sucks
I'll give a yes to Barnes
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hesitant on Barnes, with the jacked heinous standard. I might be more lenient if he was an early villain like Masucci, but compared to Volsky (killed a kid, tried to bomb others); Bruner; Vorgitch (several kids killed); Rausch (over 25 victims, plus trying to start a race war); and the SVU baddies (Kern has 30+; Blessard has over 20; Brodus has at least a dozen, who have also been tortured; Grafton has over 40), I dunno.
From the latest in the series, Golden In Death, Stephen "Steve" Whitt.
Who is he and what has he done?
So the story begins when pediatrician Dr. Kent Abner opens a package, a cheap golden egg, and when he opens the egg, he dies within minutes. He is found by his longtime husband Dr. Martin Rufty, the headmaster of Theresa A. Gold Academy (TAG), a K-12 private school (this is important later).
Investigation turns up nobody, as everyone seems to've loved Abner. The substance is identified as a nerve agent, a combination of sulfur trioxide mixed with sarin, that would kill within minutes, but mixed with another agent that would nullify the deadly substances after about 15 minutes. A very targeted kill, one for which the victim's routine had to be known.
Soon after, Elise Duran is killed in the same manner. Her husband Jay is a professor at Columbia. On their way to interview him, however, Peabody (Eve's partner) finds out that while Jay has been at Columbia for nearly 8 years, his previous job was at TAG; he was on his way out as Rufty (Abner's husband) was taking over. As Eve says: "You kill somebody, they're dead. You kill what they love, they live. And live with that pain every day."
Jay Duran tells Eve of problems with the previous headmaster (Dr. Lotte Grange), who was worried more on donations and let cheating and other infractions pass.
Eve and Peabody talk with Rufty again, and he confirms what Duran said. When Rufty took over after Grange left {after rumors she'd been having affairs with members of the faculty and students' fathers), he instituted discipline, which didn't sit well with some of the students and their families.
Eve speaks to Grange's ex-husband, and while he's cleared, reveals that if they would have sex with others, they would clear it; however, he received envelopes with compromising photos, and they divorced.
The next day, Eve interviews people involved with TAG 8 or so years prior (of note: Roarke refers to Stephen's father as one with "a silver spoon well up his arse"):
- First is a trip to DC to talk with Grange at the school she's a headmaster at. She comes off as selfish, supercilious, snobby, and an all-around bitch.
- Next is former spoiled bitch Kendel Hayward. She says that when Rufty took over at TAG, and laid down the law, her parents ordered her to get her act together, or she'd be sent to a private school in England. She eventually got her life together, and is engaged to a member of a prominent political family. She mentions Marshall Cosner, who was either kicked out or pulled out of TAG. She also mentions how Stephen Whitt was like her boyfriend, but when her 'link was taken away, she stopped communicating with him, so as to not get into trouble, and he apparently called her a "stupid, spineless cunt"; he "had a temper when denied".
- Back in NYC, next is Cosner. Liar, stupid, still living off his family's money (has a job in his family's law firm, but no law degree).
- Then is Cosner's friend Whitt. Works at his family's financial firm. Also a liar, snobby, spoiled. He was transferred to the same school where Grange took over.
- Finally is former student (and current employee of Roarke), Miguel Rodriges. Smart guy, the type that bullies thrived on tormenting. He mentions how Whitt and Cosner beat him up one time when he wouldn't help them cheat.
Eventually, Roarke finds a Lucas "Loco" Sanchez, who was stabbed to death about a month prior. He's the creator of the Deadly Gas, and was killed by Whitt either because Loco got too greedy or He Knows Too Much.
Cosner is growing concerned, and requests to meet with Whitt (the two discuss their plans to sell the formula overseas after the plan is done), who gives him a drugged drink and kills him with the formula. Cosner's parents weren't too fond of Whitt. In Cosner's apartment, Eve and Roarke find a target list, with 7 targets. There were the 3 eggs that were used (including the one which killed Cosner; it was spur-of-the-moment) plus three others, which means there's one already shipped (it's intercepted before reaching its target).
Whitt is arrested and interrogated. It is revealed that Grange slept with both Whitt and his father (not at the same time). It was Hayward getting married that set him off. His words, to his lawyer: "You better fix this, Broward, do you fucking hear me? You better fix this if you know what's good for you. You've got a wife, too."
Heinousness?
So, we all know how high the standard is. But between Whitt's 8 or so actual or planned murders and him planning to sell the formula, I think he makes it. His Revenge by Proxy is ESPECIALLY cruel: As Mira said, his targets and his victims are separate, with him deliberately killing people so their loved ones will suffer. That's a cruelty that I believe is rare for the franchise (I think only the Kindred baddies did Revenge by Proxy on such a level). To review:
- 7 or 8 attempted or actual murders (not SUPER high, but still a sizable number)
- Murders deliberately done as Revenge by Proxy to hurt people (fairly unique)
- Planning to sell the formula (I think only Reinhold from Thankless planned to do something similar, hiring HIMSELF out)
- General dickish, spoiled behavior (not enough on its own of course, but it just adds to it)
Disqualifiers?
In short, a few things worth mentioning, but none I think disqualify him. You may disagree, and this section is longer than usual though, so...
When he kills Cosner, he says "I'll miss the hell out of you", but then immediately after he "zipped uptown without a care in the world". And as Eve says: "The son of a bitch killed his only real friend because it was convenient. He didn't have a scrap of remorse over it. There was a time Mavis was my only friend—not that I wanted one. Well, and Feeney, but that was different, because boss. But after Mavis wore me down into friendship, I'd have stood for her no matter what. Now I've got all these damn people, and it's the same. I'd stand for them."
As for his ex, as Eve says:
She leaned down, close to his ear, whispered, "That stupid, spineless cunt."
Eve watched his hands fist as she eased back.
"Then what does she do? She gets tight with the mother who separated you, she goes off and starts a business. Then, the final blow." Eve reached into the box, took out the bagged clippings from the evidence box. "She gets engaged, and not to just anyone, but to someone important, to the son of someone really important. She had no right."
Eve rapped a fist on the table, whipped out the words. "Isn't that how you saw it? Nobody walks away from you like that. And whose fault was it?"
So, yeah. Nothing there. Though why she wasn't a target, I don't know.
There IS one bit near the end that gives me pause:
Eve: She's done, or will be. I only wish I could put her in a cage. But I had a discussion with the powers that be at the prep school, gave them documentation, which includes her naked with a then student—minor. She's done.
Roarke: "It did start with her, didn't it?"
Eve: People like Whitt, I think they're born empty. But yeah, she nurtured it, planted the seeds for it, perpetuated it. So, done...
- A running theme of the books is how kids don't always turn out like their parents. Eve's and Roarke's fathers were both assholes; conversely, Rayleen Straffo and Jerry Reinhold had loving parents yet still turned out awful.
- Also, compare to Chase Winfield, Madeline Bullock's son. Eve saw her own father in Madeline. Conversely, she in no way feels sympathy or understanding for Whitt, and in fact relishes locking him up (although, full disclosure, she REALLY doesn't like Grange either, and wished she could be locked up as well; as it is, she'll settle for getting Grange fired; "She may not be involved, directly, in the murders, but she helped create them."). In addition, unlike Kindred, Eve thinks Whitt's father may be a dick, but isn't as mad at him as she is at the father in Kindred.
Conclusion?
You decide. I say yes. Funny thing if Whitt counts: This'll be the first CM since Reinhold, so 6+ years in actual time...yet only 5 months in story time (Thanksgiving 2060-April 2061). That's actually SHORTER than the 8 or so months from Waverly to Renquist (even though the books were only written 3+ years apart).
Oh, and Cosner himself? Doesn't count. Besides the fact he seems to consider Whitt an ACTUAL friend, Whitt's the brains of the operation anyway (Eve just considers him a follower, albeit one who "gets off on the violence").
And for those wondering if we have too many entries for the series...it's a lot, but all of them are unique enough to count in their own way (and honestly, there are probably NUMEROUS others who are heinous enough but fail for some other reason).
Edited by ACW on Apr 26th 2020 at 5:27:07 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Byth Rok, Nebiros, Tobias Whale (Kingpin if he had Tombstone's albinism), and I'll say to Whitt as well
Counting eleven for Shane and no abstains or ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
so I'll start drafting a write-up for him. It should be ready for next week's batch!
Edit: switch to abstain on Barnes. No fault of the EP, just Criminal Minds Syndrome striking again.
Edited by captainmarkle on Apr 26th 2020 at 2:38:18 AM
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
The Draftsman of Doom
Goku Black
Whitt
I'm not sure on barnes. Acw brought up Massuci as an early villain but that dude has a bodycount of 20 which is higher then most of the villains on that page for the most Part and he's the shows first villain..
Edited by miraculous on Apr 26th 2020 at 12:24:39 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Exactly. I think Barnes may be a victim of "Criminal Minds syndrome".
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yeah to Whitt. Not gonna vote yet on Barnes.
@ACW I personally think the crimes and the personal viciousness surrounding them are noteworthy enough themselves.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Eh, maybe. I'll just abstain for now.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Slight yes to Whitt, but I'll err on the side of caution and vote no to Barnes.
Whitt. Abstain on Barnes.
Shane, Nebiros and Whale, Byth and Whitt. Abstain on Barnes.
@ACW Pertaining to Volsky, I don’t think the kid actually died. His throat was slit though and he was in no condition to testify.
There were two other kids who lost their parents because of Barnes (Whitaker’s son and Rossi’s daughter), but I don’t think he knew anything about that. Not that it would have mattered.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 26th 2020 at 12:58:39 PM
to The New 52 candidates And Shane
I’ll also give a tentative to Barnes as he does seem heinous just enough to be considered
Goku Black
Just mark me as an abstain for now. I'll think about it
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
The batch. I've done the Fan Works stuff already.
A tentative to Captain Barnes.
Goku Black
Weirdly we already have a Barnes in Monster.Law And Order. Might be the first time a cm page has two different characters with the same name if he's approved.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
"The Juice is Loose."
Abstain on Barnes. I don't know anything about Law and Order.
Yes to Whitt.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
to Whitt. Need to think about Barnes.
Rough writeup for Shane the Shy:
Shoggy the Seldom Dog: "Shane the Shy" is a mastermind who decided the best way to do evil would be to subtly engineer disasters, wars or famines by deceiving adventurers and posing as a harmless middle man, then fleeing as disaster unfolds. Conning the party into unearthing historical documents that start a bloody war, then agricultural tools that cause famine via invasive flora, Shane flees while also framing them for murder and engineering other disasters such as a gold rush to lure a Red Dragon into a kingdom, or sponsoring aspiring warlords. Once the party eventually traps and interrogates him, they discover Shane does this not out of brainwashing or a geas from an evil deity, but because he woke up one morning and decided that it'd be amusing to devote himself to making the world miserable.
Added to drafts etc.
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Web Original, or D&D? And it'll kick off next week's batch.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@ACW What is Criminal Minds Syndrome by the way? I feel like I know. Is it that a candidate definitely seems heinous enough on their own, but when the standard is high, it can be way, way harder to meet it no matter how bad they are?
Leaning towards a keep for Barnes.Actually, abstaining, but leaning towards a no. The HS is bretty steep for L&O.Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 26th 2020 at 3:26:34 PM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.