During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I probably asked about that; I think he's in the games too?
Although if and when WH and 40K get their own pages, they'll be at Tabletop Games AND Lit, since there's so much crossover.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Thomas Wayne.
Question, if we had examples who count from bad writing, what are the chances we get someone who counts (or is disqualified) due a Plot Hole ?
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I can't think of any, but I'm sure it's happened/will happen.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Does Griffin count as an example of bad writing?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Okay, since i got support, here is the EP
What is the Work?
Dragon Age is one of the properties of Bioware, which they (much like Mass Effect) decided to transform into a franchise, consisted not only of video games, but also books, comics, couple of web series, animated CGI movie and couple of flash games. It follows the fictional world of Thedas, which pretty much follows Tolkien style of magical world building aka we have humans, elves and dwarves living in this world, in addition of unique race of Qunari (a giant grey horned humanoids, who live by the Qun). Out of prime media of the franchise (video game), at current time, there were only 3 entries released (and each one has a bunch of story DLC and expansions) and while each game follows its own protagonist and their own story, all games share one thing in common, quests to save the world (or a city, in case on Dragon Age II) and darkspawn (an Always Chaotic Evil race, which entire existence revolves around bringing death and destruction), who while haven't played a major role in overall plot since Dragon Age Origins, still make an appearance in every game of the series.
While we already have a bunch of keepers of the series, i think we missed one particular nasty dude from a short DLC to Dragon Age Origins (the whole DLC can be walked through in under an hour, much less if you're good at the game), Leliana's Song, which acts as a prequel to the main game and depicts the story of how Leliana (one of the companions in the main game) ended up in Church of Ferelden and how she was betrayed by her former mentor.
My candidate is one of the main antagonists of the DLC (who only appeared in second half of it) - Harwen Raleigh.
Who is Harwen Raleigh?
The commander of The Hard Line troops, who fought in the first Ferelden-Orlais war and lost his lands during that war. While his troops helped Ferelden to win the war, King Maric was revolted by Harwen's love for torture and rape and refused to give him any lands to rule over. Developing hatred for everyone because of this, Harwen was forced to serve under Arl Urien (the father of one of the CM's, Vaughan Kendells), using every opportunity he can to arrest anyone for minor crimes. Then in Arl's dungeon (unknown to Arl himself), Harwen would have fun torturing his prisoners to death, having his men rape the women or sell his prisoners to "the highest bidder" (one of his prisoners is confirmed to be the mother of PC of City Elf Origin).
At later point in time he conspired with Marjolaine (Leliana's mentor at the time) to get his hands at the secret Orlesian documents, so he could use them to convince Ferelden higher command to attack Orlais, so he could get back his lost lands. When Leliana noticed the documents and tried to talked Marjolaine out of it, Marjolaine set up Leliana and her companions (dwarf Tug and elf Sketch) to be captured by Harwen, who then proceed to torture them all (with all implications that he and his men were raping Leliana as well during that time), leading to Tug dying from torture. As Leliana was freed by Revered Mother named Dorothea, she escapes his dungeon, freeing most of his prisoners in process and meeting Silas Corthwaite (a small scale poacher, who was tortured in his dungeon for weeks), who then joined her on her quest to stop Harwen and Marjolaine from getting the documents to Ferelden leadership. As they corner Harwen, he fights them (even has his mage unleash a pet small dragon at them), only for them to beat him. At this point either Leliana herself or Silas going to finish him off by throwing him off the cliff, as he mocked Leliana by saying "You're better than Marjolaine said. The bards of Orlais earned their reputation. But all i remember is a scared little girl in my cell".
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
None. Harwen is hateful petty bastard, who was enraged at the fact that his lands were taken and King Maric refused to give him new ones, because of his war crimes.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
For a villain, who is exclusive to a short DLC, i think he makes it. Harwen is said to regularly engage in torture and rape and we see his "Torture Dungeon" full of mutilated bodies and bones and dead people. As we free the prisoners we get a little dialogue from them, which indicates the horrible things he did to them, all the dialogues from characters tell about him raping and selling of his prisoners and there are plenty of indications from leliana herself that she was raped by him or his men several times. Also, we get quite a cutscene with full tragedy and horror, as leliana finds a dead Tug, who was tortured to death.
Plus, his plan to start a war adds quite a bit to his attempted bodycount, as this war is mentioned to be devastating and destructive, if it was ever come to be.
Final Verdict?
What do you think?
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Apr 18th 2020 at 12:40:26 PM
I'm only asking because I just seen this werewolf movie, and there's a plot hole regarding the werewolfs identity that can either make or break their case.
I'll EP it later tonight, just got some work to do first.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
to Harwen Raleigh.
to Harwen
Goku Black
Harwen
I'll have an ep from a new vampire novel on Tuesday which is when the right amount if time has passed. Still in the meantime. I'm doing two bad guys on the mb thread for this weekend.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to Harwen.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'll say yes to Harwen, but didn't you say something about him also trying to start a war? Or did I miss that?
Voiced by Mark "Sir Nicholas" Healy
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
to Harwen.
IIRC, Unalaq was intended to be a Well-Intentioned Extremist by his creators, but just came off as a self-serving, self-righteous bastard.
Goku Black
Well might be since the WIE stuff is a very extreme Informed Ability
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Harwen.
So, at this point, I have decided that I am way too addicted to this thread to take a real break. Oh well. So, having finished reading Despair Island, I have another character from that fic.
What's the work?
Despair Island is a Total Drama Dark Fic in which the titular game show is now a Deadly Game a la Danganronpa. 24 teenagers, kidnapped form their homes, must complete each challenge and fight for their lives. Same rules as Total Drama Island, but whoever's eliminated gets executed.
So, Chris himself has been discussed, but there is another character who is just as vile.
Who is Zolkoff? What does he do?
Zolkoff is a thug from the Serbian Mafia and Chris's hired hand. A man every bit as sadistic as Chris, Zolkoff aids in many of the executions.
- In chapter 5, his first appearance, he slams a large Barbel into the back of Eva's skull, instantly killing her.
- In chapter 6, he holds Gwen down on a table so Chris can cut her arms and let her bleed to death.
- Chris tosses a grenade to Zolkoff, who uses a baseball bat to bat it to Tyler, killing him.
- Zolkoff walks over to Sadie, who is strapped to a table, and slowly saws her in half while she screams.
- He takes a tied up Cody and stuffs him in an Iron Maiden.
- He ties up Ezekiel to a stake and leaves him to burn, grinning evilly and saying "Time to fry, little Catholic."
- When Katie tries to kill Chris, Zolkoff gut-punches her and, on orders from Chris, saws her in half the same way he did to Sadie.
- He puts Sierra on a big X and leaves her to be squashed by concrete.
- When Duncan’s father tries to rescue the campers, Zolkoff shoots the helicopter down, killing the pilot, and when the copter crashes into a gas tank, he almost lights it on fire before Chris stops him (because Chris wants to know who is in the copter). Then he helps take Duncan’s father hostage.
- Zolkoff executes Courtney vía guillotine.
- He slashes Beth’s throat, then says "pig girl gets gutted like pig."
- And finally, when an arrested Chris says that he will rat out Johnathan Gavrilovic for revenge, Zolkoff- who works for John- strangles him to death to shut him up. Then he escapes.
Heinousness?
While he doesn't participate in every execution, he does participate in most of them, and the most gruesome ones. And it is shown that he takes great pleasure in doing so. So he passes. Oh, and he shoots the pilot. And kills Chris- dude was an Asshole Victim, but still. As for Johnathan, I discussed it with 43 and concluded that John is ultimately too distant from the overall plot.
Mitigating Qualities?
He says that he is protecting his boss when killing Chris, but there is zero indication that this is anything more than a Psycho for Hire mob enforcer following the orders of his boss.
Verdict?
Easy keep.
Edited by MasterN on Apr 18th 2020 at 6:01:25 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Gonna say yes to the Dragon Age one. Sounds like Howe Lite in many aspects, but even that's enough to qualify you in the setting.
More Cthulhu posts! Got another Call of Cthulhu post, this time from the Old West themed setting Down Darker Trails. This is from the fourth chapter of the Shadows over Stillwater module, Beneath the Burning Sun, and our villain is Reverend Elijah Smythe.
Who is Reverend Smythe? What has he done?
Originally a vicious Mormon priest who used his faith as an excuse to Rape, Pillage, and Burn, the mad preacher Smythe turned his loyalties to R'lyeh when a star-spawn dormant in a nearby lake reached into his mind. Smythe began worshiping the star-spawn and pledged to release it to secure a place among the survivors of humanity when Cthulhu rises again.
Smythe has his gang rob a bank and start threatening to kill loads of people to disguise from his real goal: human sacrifice. Smythe kidnaps the mayor's daughter during the robbery and uses this as incentive to start luring lawmen to him so he can sacrifice them all to the star-spawn. Not content with just that, Smythe kidnaps an entire village of twenty innocent Navajo people, personally murdering the one old man who stands up to him before sacrificing the Navajos to the star-spawn.
When a farmer named Hobbes stands up to Smythe, the preacher's vengeance is swift and brutal; Smythe massacres his entire family, murdering his two children and his wife before his eyes before crucifying Hobbes, and even brutally murdering his three farmhands too, leaving their bodies as a display of the consequence of defiance. Smythe, in the climax, attempts to sacrifice the investigators to the star-spawn, and goes a step further by trying to sacrifice all of his own men as well. Smythe's final crime is his attempt to kill the mayor's daughter by flaying her in tribute to the star-spawn, whereupon he's finally killed.
Any mitigating factors?
Nope. Smythe's got a respectable body count, a lot of torture and murder and he's probably one of if not the single worst character in the Down Darker Trails setting itself.
Conclusion?
Nice and simple keeper.
yes to Smythe and Harwen
Goku Black
Smythe
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sure to Smythe. After Bitter Wind, or at the end with the Pulp & Achtung! stuff?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yes to Zolkoff and Smythe.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Yes, they were.
Edited by falcontalons on Apr 18th 2020 at 3:56:38 AM
Goku Black
Is Klaus kitski Jack the Ripper still up?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Were Warlord and Belanger also definitive cuts?
Edited by ACW on Apr 18th 2020 at 6:56:04 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
to Zolkoff and Reverend Elijah Smythe.
While i was browsing Table Top page i noticed that Constant Drachenfels from Warhammer novel Literature/Drachenfels is listed there. Shouldn't he be in Literature?
Edited by hegelvonaxel on Apr 18th 2020 at 1:49:34 AM