During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
Abstain on Mehmed
Any more votes on Vanderwaal before I move on to the next Rainbow Six candidates?
Edited by therealjackieboy on Mar 24th 2020 at 2:10:38 AM
"No running in the halls!"
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
His father also told to have cancelled this practice. Mehmed II wants to reintroduce it back.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Mar 24th 2020 at 12:11:35 PM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Vanderwall and Mongul
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Mehmed. He sounds unpleasant, don't get me wrong.
He still started it and was responsible for Vlad's own. I'm just not seeing boys raised as soldiers in a medieval setting to be torture just based on that.
And seriously? We see the vamprie attack. The soldiers are reduced to terrified, screaming messes as the vampires sadistically set on them and enjoy their pain and terror. This is not just "oh, mooks being killed"
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
We see a whole flashback at the opening making it clear the process is horrible.
Dracula dosent seem to have known that it would "damn there souls", he's genuinely surprised at them being evil at the end, and he gave them vampirism so they could get revenge against Mehemeds men.
And...I don't think killing minions contributes to the standard just because its particularly brutal. If the film was trying to paint a Gray and grey morality situation and we see a bunch of these guys were punch clock villains maybe but, the film just portrays them as a bunch of mooks.
these were the guys who murdered them. They have a right to be glad to get revenge.
Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 23rd 2020 at 11:11:19 PM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Oh sorry yeah there Jackie.
I do however, take issue when people portrayed as helpless are killed and that still doesn’t undo the fact Mehmed I seems to have begun the process and did it for who knows how many years.
Edited by 43110 on Mar 24th 2020 at 5:13:01 AM
He 'didn't know it would damn them?' That's disproven by the entire film, and his moments with Vampire Tywin Lannister.
There's being killed by soldiers and set upon by invincible blood drinking devils. The film plays up the sheer horror of what's happening for a reason.
Edited by Lightysnake on Mar 24th 2020 at 2:12:52 AM
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Hm, I'll have to give the movie a rewatch later.
The way the movie portrays vampirism is...admittedly confusing.
Vlad goes the movie still mostly having agency and such, then its suddenly Always Chaotic Evil situation...which dosent affect him for some reason as he saves his son from them.
Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 23rd 2020 at 11:18:05 PM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Yeah, I'm giving Mehmed a no.
Goku Black
Mehmed.
Foreign Troper
No to Mehmed as well.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
The Draftsman of Doom
Alright, with the proposer's permission and approval, here's a writeup for a candidate proposed and approved here, but never written up. If everyone is fine with it, I'll add it to the Drafts.
- Futuristic Violence And Fancy Suits: Molech is a ragingly misogynistic and exaggeratedly masculine social Darwinist who seeks to remake the world in his own image. Having murdered Arthur Livingston and several of his scientists to this end, Molech sends hitmen after Livingston's daughter Zoey, eventually targeting her mother and attempting to make a snuff film out of her brutal death. When he gets the technology he desires, he destroys Livingston Tower, killing countless people, afterwards announcing that he will target certain places in the city. When he finishes attacking one of his targets, the security contracting force, he kills the workers by tricking them into walking into the radius of the explosion of a bomb they planted. Afterwards, he severely beats Zoey and attempts to massacre countless homeless people out of a belief they're too weak to live. When he gets distracted, he begins rampaging through Livingston's estate in a fit of rage.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Penultimate Rainbow candidate incoming.
What Is the Work?
Tom Clancy’s Rainbow Six: Vegas, released in 2006, is the first Rainbow Six game for HD platforms. Far more action packed than even Lockdown, thanks to taking major inspiration from Call of Duty and Gears of War, the game’s still quite a challenge, no thanks to our protagonist Logan Keller being about as sturdy as wet toilet paper.
This entry takes our boys to viva Las Vegas as they attempt to stop a large terrorist attack in the City of Sin. Alongside the Southern Logan, is the asshole Gabe, generic guy Kan Akahashi, demolitions expert Michael Walter, and the intelligent (though not so much in gameplay) Jung Park. Assisting them is Joanna Torres, former member of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.
Who Is she?
Irena Morales is revolutionist terrorist leader (referred to in-game as a female Che Guevara) working for the traitorous Gabriel “Gabe” Nowak on taking down Rainbow Six.
What has she done?
Already infamous in Mexico for getting Coyotes (human traffickers) to smuggle in people from the States and murdering them on video, and for bombing the French embassy at some point, Irena uses Gabe to lure Rainbow to her, kidnapping both Gabe and Kan, and holding them captive. She later takes over the city of Las Vegas, murdering plenty of people and taking others hostage. She tells Vegas that they’re in control, claiming that if the police stand in the way of their operation, they’ll launch a micro-pulse bomb, a virus-carrying explosive that, if unleashed, will infect people and cause their skin to melt and boil until their die, which she does on some poor shmuck. Taking over a network station to broadcast their demands, Irena kidnaps Dr. Williams to have him create bombs for her. Williams is rescued by Rainbow, but a skyscraper building across from them explodes.
Williams reveals that they’ve set up not only that bomb, but a micro-pulse bomb inside the building they’re in. Two dozen fires break out, leading Vegas to declare an evacuation. Turns out the terrorist attacks were a way to distract everybody from their true plan. Her base is located in the Nevada dam (which she’s also planted a micro-pulse bomb to mess with Rainbow), where, having captured Dr. Williams again, plans to launch a micro-pulse missile. We don’t know where she’s going to launch it, but we know it’s deadly. As she dies, she taunts Rainbow about how even if she’s dying, her partner/boss Gabriel will take care of them for good.
Redeeming Qualities?
While the game claims she's a revolutionary terrorist leader, she’s not really shown fighting for any cause. She’s a murderous sadist who willingly works with Gabriel knowing that she’ll kill loads of people.
Heinousness?
She’s more small scaled a terrorist leader than Vanderwaal, primarily operating in Mexico, and is responsible for loads of death and destruction in Las Vegas, even if she’s under orders from Gabriel.
And Gabriel, despite being the ultimate villain of the duology, doesn’t count. He’s doing all this because he wanted to be punished for fucking up a hostage assignment, and blames not only his superior officer Bishop, but Rainbow Six as a whole. Plus, he’s a fucking weak, whiny dumbass who ain’t even worth our time. Like seriously, y’all thought Infinite was bad, you ain’t seen Gabriel. Terrorized the entirety of Las Vegas just because he had a hissy fit.
Conclusion
I believe she counts. Smaller scale than most villains, but makes up for it with her actions.
Edited by therealjackieboy on Mar 24th 2020 at 2:55:12 AM
"No running in the halls!"
Hey quick question. A new Bendy game Boris and the Dark Survival released. Susie Campbell appears again and is evil once again. However, it is now clear that she does have moral agency as the Boris clone who helps in chapter 3 is Buddy Lewek a human who became Boris in Dreams Come to Life. So would that make Alice possible for another complete monster proposal or no? A respectful question just wanted to know.
to Irena, especially if the stuff with the Coyotes is onscreen.
Irena
Mehmed
I mean, you could propose her, but even with the idea that people who become the toons have agency, I'd still have some concerns with Susie.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Agency wasn't the big issue with her, that was more her backstory and if she was genuinely nuts or not....
I personally still think she counts, and have my own arguments on the above, but I've sort of chosen to leave that to rest for the time being.
I'll see that dark revival thing and see if theres stuff worth talking about.
Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 23rd 2020 at 11:59:13 PM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Goku Black
irene
Their was also a bendy and the ink machine ya prequel book focuses on bendy and drew. Saw it while looking for books with potential candidates. Though I haven't read it personally
Edited by miraculous on Mar 24th 2020 at 2:58:40 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to Irina and remind me about Molech... I don't have an issue with the entry itself but not only was the EP from a long time ago, I recall that one included some questionable details with the poster insisting the character was played straight in spite of being what sounded like an MRA parody, getting distracted by the heroes building a statue of him with a small dick, going on about how he envied black people because they got to face prejudice, etc. Can we... talk about that one a bit?
The wifi here sucks
Alice was voted down due to her having a Freudian Excuse, not because of Moral Agency, though if the expanded materials have her doing things that invalidate that excuse then by all means propose her.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Don’t get snippy, no one is making up new standards about killing mooks. Vlad and Mehmed aggress each other with their militaries: Mehmed might be a touch worse but Vlad also happily massacres under him and later claps back nasty in their conflict together. The fact his dad had the same policy of taking the children in to be indoctrinated makes it similarly difficult to measure when he’s not even the first one following the practice.