During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
So, because I have so far not gotten a response, here is my attempt at a writeup for Lisbeth Salander Fischer (and yes, I just recently made the page):
- Child of the Eclipse: Lisbeth Fischer, though already loathsome in canon, becomes a true monster here. The leader of the Haven Point cult, Lisbeth used a prophecy of an incoming apocalypse to indoctrinate others into her teachings. Upon encountering Daniel Diaz, she draws him into the cult, manipulating him into becoming the centerpiece, before using him to initiate her endgame; the final atonement ceremony, wherein she and Nicholas stab Daniel in front and back of his stomach, then shoot him to get him to unleash his powers, resulting in the churchgoers all dying at once, including the child Sarah. Finally, having successfully engineered a mass Murder-Suicide, Lisbeth prepares to stab Daniel in the heart, making it clear that she only viewed him as a "wicked" tool to be used, and tells him that he and the rest of Earth will burn.
So, Lisbitch should probably go under Jeffershit from that other LIS fic, right?
Edited by MasterN on Feb 13th 2020 at 5:22:04 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Self-Declared King of Everything
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Morph.
An Eldritch Troper
Speaking of Alessa’s Fantasies, shall I also point out Ruby and Nora? The ban evader who probably wrote Alessa used their sockpuppets to make lots of edits to the Ruby and Nora page and there’s an improbable number of ‘villains’ there. We probably discussed this before, but it was about the heinous standard, not whether it was just an attempt to put CMs up.
I think Lighty and Scraggle have read the fic and I’m simply concerned if there’s anything wrong about Ruby and Nora, like what Lighty said about Alessa’s Fantasies.
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Morph
Lizzid people!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Don't see why bring that one up. But I do agree with cutting the Alessa entries due to it being done by a ban evader.
No to the demon, yes to Morph and honestly... I wouldn't lose a second of sleep over the Ruby and Nora stuff getting axed, everything I've heard about it sounds like it was made to put out candidates for this trope and that standpoint sketches me right the fuck out.
An Eldritch Troper
You know, ban evader may had something to do with Ruby and Nora, given the list of sociopathic villains that sound alike Alessa and that they had made numerous edits to the fanfic’s pages...
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
What 43110 said.
Edited by Draxterrus on Feb 13th 2020 at 9:42:44 PM
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
I don't see why what that user did somehow invalidates the pages.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
I think the issue is that we're wondering if that story was also Written by the Ban Evader or something like that.
I...would like to be absolutely certain that's the case if we plan to ax the examples.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
An Eldritch Troper
That is the point, Kylo, but to be fair the page was set up by some other user who isn’t the ban evader.
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
Lizzid people!
Anyway, here's Holda:
- Gretel and Hansel (2020): Holda takes in Gretel and Hansel after their mother abandoned them. Revealed to be an evil witch, Holda was the mother of the girl in the pink cap who, after banishing her to the wilderness, was promised great power if she gave into the darkness. Sacrificing and cannibalizing her other children, Holda took the appearance of an elderly woman to lure children into her house with enchanted food before killing and eating them to enrich her powers. When she sensed the same powers in Gretel, Holda takes her as an apprentice and entices Hansel into climbing a ladder into a fire pit so Gretel would be forced to eat her own brother.
Showtime!
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to the demon
Yes to Morph, too...let me get a quick one up now. From the short story, Hand-Delivered Letter...the good Professor.
James Moriarty?
You got it. Now, Moriarty is a ruthless bastard as ever, presenting his schemes to dear Sherlock through a delivered letter...after Reichenbach Fall, a wounded Moriarty was found by a kind farmer and his wife. After they nursed him back to health, he murdered them and their dog, set their farm ablaze and set about reassembling his empire...with a new scheme. He hunted scientists, rounded them up and set them to making a zombie plague, first with rats and then with humans. When he judged the plague ready? Moriarty began to experiment on people to make more zombies, using them to kill others...and then murdered all the scientists.
As a little "fuck you" to Holmes, he made sure to target Watson first, having him ambushed and killed by a zombie, and then having the hands brought to him as macabre trophies, gloating through it in the letter. And as it ends, it becomes clear Moriarty has unleashed a zombie plague on all London, intending to kill the entire population to take Holmes out or make him suffer, the letter ending with a mocking farewell and a signal from James Moriarty.
Any mitigating qualities? That's a laugh. No. Moriarty is as evil as he's ever been there. The sheer horror of his deeds are hardly glossed over, and despite how short the story is, he obliterates the heinous standard. Mitigating Qualities? No, he murders a kind couple who save his life and tries toe xterminate a city after murdering Watson out of nothing but spite against Sherlock.
Conclusion?
Easy keeper.
The Draftsman of Doom
Moriarty.
Haven’t read the fic. Don’t know what to say other than “cut” if it turns out to have insufficient plot.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Feb 13th 2020 at 9:18:11 AM
Feels good, don't it?
An Eldritch Troper
Did you see what I said about Ruby and Nora?
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Moriarty.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Ultimate Moral Compass
to our second Moriarty of the day.
to Moriarty
Moriarty.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Ruby and Nora seems more legit compared to Alessa's Fantasies. If we end up cutting anyone there, it'd be because the fanfic thoroughly embraces Adaptational Villainy—and that's not an automatic reason for disqualifying someone.
I do find it odd that the writer of the story no longer exists anymore though on AO3. :/
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
An Eldritch Troper
In what other ways is it more legit?
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
to another Moriarty. Two in one day.
Also, my point still stands; if both the Alessia and R&N CMs have to be cut on account of plagiarism, jacked up heinousness standard, and being written by ban-evading Tropers who use them as some bizarre self-promotion, I see no reason to keep the pages themselves. They should be cut in order to discourage this behavior. The Alessia page, at least, I am sure should be cut, as it is plagiarism. Keeping it gives the plagarism some semblance of legitimacy- cutting it shows we will not tolerate it.
Edited by MasterN on Feb 13th 2020 at 6:42:23 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
How much proof do you have of this, is what I'm asking, Draxterrus. You yourself said the page wasn't made by the ban evader, just heavily edited by them. I'm saying we shouldn't immediately trim this page until we get some more facts.
Edited by Tyk5919 on Feb 13th 2020 at 9:45:56 AM
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Lizzid people!
I'm kind of skeptical with the accusations on R&N tbh. Alessa getting cut makes sense because it's blatant plagiarism. Unless there's more contextual evidence for the other, can't really say either way that it should be cut as well. The evader editing the page isn't enough to conclude that they also wrote the entire fic.
Edited by AustinDR on Feb 13th 2020 at 6:46:56 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Lisbeth and Morph
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir