During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Sure, feel free to submit that change in the Edit thread
Was it voted to keep Ragnarok from Ben 10: Alien Force?
- Brenda, the lookalike Mom left in charge of Brak and Dad while she was away, who delights in murder, body desecration, and is quite unpleasant.
Wasn't this a parody series?
- Complete Monster: The Hunter. In contrast to, say, the killer of Bambi's mother, he goes so far as to attempt to burn down Celesteville, a city of demonstrably sapient elephants, just so he doesn't have to give up his hunting.
- Complete Monster: Rataxes, in a bit of Flanderization from his original, more grey-shaded portrayal.
Okay, I seriously doubt a children's series like Babar could have a Complete Monster but back when I brought this up, there were actually some votes to keep.
edited 21st Nov '13 8:03:48 PM by TVRulezAgain
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
On the one hand, early childhood show. On the other, wow, that first guy.
Space Ghost Coast to Coast kind of had worse people so cut it.
As for Babar, is the Hunter aware that the elephants are sapient and are capable of building that entire kingdom themselves? As for Rataxes, I don't know how grey he is in the original series, but his movie version has him equaling the Hunter in his crimes.
That's pretty brutal for a kid's show. Does the Hunter get any characterization?
Well, we let a couple Scooby-Doo characters in (the lone non-sympathetic member of the Big Bad Triumvirate from Zombie Island and the Bigger Bad from Mystery Inc.) but even with that precedent I think this'd be pushing it...
Going to start my case as to whether to label Kyubey as a Complete Monster. Its for the whole series because Rebellion is canon, taking place after the series. Of couse its being judged by human standards of morality as part of the debate.
Crimes: Matches many of the symptoms of The Sociopath. A Consummate Liar (if we define lying as "not telling the truth") who lies to Kyoko in order to get her killed in order to sabotage Homura's wish and in the process exterminate humanity (it fully knows that Madoka's witch form is powerful enough to kill the entire planet and is in fact trying to cause humanity to be wiped out to fill his quota). It may even be possible that he is just lying about entropy to trick people into making their wish. This is just what he does in the original series.
In Rebellion, it gets some of its incubator buddies to construct some sort of Lotus-Eater Machine type device that turns magical girls into witches via psychological torture/ Mind Rape. Why it does this: simply to spite Madoka and her system by targeting her best friend. And it pays for what it did DEARLY!
Needless to say, whatever sympathy the audience had for Kyubey has been flushed down the toilet, and he was already a divisive character to begin with. Heck, the "utilitarianism" Blue-and-Orange Morality defense in his favor beforehand can legitimately be challenged by sheer virtue of the spitefullness of its actions in Rebellion.
edited 21st Nov '13 8:50:38 PM by magnum12
Lizzid people!
Sounds like a keeper to me ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
.
Kyubey sounds like an example that would come up here before. Did he?
You know I actually remember the Babar cartoon from when I was a kid, long time ago. The Hunter for the most part doesn't get a lot of characterization, because he almost never speaks, expect in the last scene he appears in, where he is screaming like a maniac, about how he will never give up and will "destroy them all", while the fire he caused was advancing towards him and it is heavily implied he died in the fire. I don't know if that is enough characterization to count.
You know, for a show aimed at kids, the Hunter is a rather dark character, who meets a rather grisly end.
Yeah, but that was before the movie. If we decide that he counts, maybe we should specify that his movie appearance is what qualifies.
edited 21st Nov '13 9:43:27 PM by Camberf
Haven't seen the 3rd Madoka movie, so I'm not going to judge him yet. Hopefully I'll see it tomorrow. I can say with plenty of confidence that he doesn't qualify in the original series, Kazumi, Oriko, and The Different Story due to ultimately trying to save the universe, not always having humans' worst interest in mind, and being too alien to properly judge. The Kyubey in this movie should be a different one, but I'll see. I know he tends to get a lot of hate, some justified, a lot of it not.
If no one objects, I'll add these writeups to Sandbox.Anime And Manga Monsters.
But before I do, Occasional Exister disagreed about Einsturzen from Dogs: Bullets & Carnage. Was there a decision for that?
edited 21st Nov '13 10:47:38 PM by TVRulezAgain
Yep, after we researched her, he decided she qualifies. Put 'em up.
I'll wait until Sterok posts his/her opinion on Kyubey to vote yes or no. (Sorry Sterok, don't want to assume on anyone's gender if I don't know).
I also want to clarify on Cristu Bulat: Cristu is defined by Pragmatic Villainy. He took part in the Balkan war crimes with his dad, but he's the one who came up with the "let's start kidnapping the girls and women and using them for sex-slavery" plan.
Cristu is totally on board with taking out one of the black gangsters. When Tiberiu is digging his thumbs into the man's eyes, Cristu is boredly checking his watch. When Tiberius goes to kill the others, Cristu just asks "Why, exactly? Kill one, send the rest back with a lesson learned". When Tiberiu doesn't listen, Cristu angrily mutters on the phone Tiberiu has no regard for 'police or consequences' and wants to stay the fuck away from Frank Castle because everyone who tries to fight him dies. Tiberiu later sneers Cristu has 'the soul of a banker.'
However, let's just get this out of the way. Cristu is a very bad person. Tiberiu is a trigger happy lunatic but Cristu, as one character puts it "does not feel." He does whatever the pragmatic solution is to keep on the down low. In his business, this includes kidnapping women, keeping them as sex slaves and having them beaten and raped (though Vera came up with that, Cristu implemented it). We see flashbacks of him and Tiberiu committing violent war crimes as well.
So yeah, there's nothing redeeming whatsoever about Cristu. Normally this kind of pragmatic villain would avoid atrocities, whereas Tiberiu embraces them, but his main business is one of the worst crimes imaginable. He has women tortured, raped, broken and forced to sell themselves all so he can make a buck.
edited 21st Nov '13 11:43:01 PM by Lightysnake
Ooo, there were Punisher Max examples last page. *looks at his complete collection of Garth Ennis run on the title* Okay, I can throw my two cents in.
Cristu - Like Lightysnake said, he's not objecting to the slaughter for moral reasons, he's objecting because it's bad for business, which is selling sex slaves they forcibly kidnapped from Europe. Where the first thing they did was rape them to break them. He has no qualms with anything his group does, he just doesn't believe in engaging in needless sadism. Plus, he was involved in killing a social worker's boyfriend because she rescued one of the former slaves, before killing said slave's baby and sending a photo to her.
Tiberiu - Same as above, his comment isn't really proof of loving his wife. He's just the sort of guy who believes in overwhelming retaliation if you fuck with him. His introductory moment involves him gouging the eyes out of a gangbanger who disrespected him, then killing his friends (which was what his son objected to). He also took Frank's near-suicidal reaction to his family's remains' desecration (which was to go on an epic murder spree that left hundreds dead in a week, which everybody noted was extreme even for him) was that it was evidence of his sanity (said murder streak also showed that he was not right mentally at the time). When he found out that his son was planning to betray him (again, because of all the excessive violence he was engaging in and the amount of enemies it was making) his reaction was to round up his highly-trained soldiers and go to his son's place to kill him (the only reason he failed was because the Punisher killed him first).
As for Frank's standards, we can go between 616 Frank and MAX Frank:
For Punisher MAX's standards, Frank is pretty reasonable. He only attacked cops who were getting in his way, and not excessively (when there's a frame attempt by the Police - organised by Cristu to keep him from going after the slaving operation, he's surprised because he knew he didn't hurt them enough to leave any sort of lasting injury), the most minor criminal he dealt with would be a murder (some minor thieves during the middle of his epic murder-streak noted he had never gone after anyone on their level before).
I'll actually let Tiberiu's attempted murder of Cristu slide. Cristu to be fair did try to kill the miserable old bastard first (and Tiberiu got another evil psycho deed there in leaving one gangster alive before throwing scalding hot tea on the bullet wound).
Still, it shows that the two simply do not give a fuck about one another as far as any redeeming quality.
No, the other one.
About Kyuubey, how does Blue-and-Orange Morality fit into this trope?
Check out my fanfiction!
Depends upon whether we are talking about Blue-and-Orange Morality or the stuff that people routinely shoehorn into it.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
His species is a pseudo-hive mind that lack emotions and consider them a mental illness, and doesn't comprehend human morality well. He doesn't even get why humans have an issue with having their souls removed and placed in a container.
And where is the 'spite Madoka' thing coming from? There were a few scene transcripts on the Madoka wiki and if they're accurate the reason he wants the old system back is it was more efficient than the current one, something he mentioned at the end of the anime. At the end of his plan he's even confused with Homura being unhappy with what he did to her.
Edit: Looking at the trope page there's a couple mentions of wanting greater efficiency in the system as his motivation so it would appear that's accurate. I plan on watching through the movie later today to get a better idea of what he did in it.
edited 22nd Nov '13 6:00:25 AM by doineedaname
No, the other one.
I know who Kyuubey is; I just wonder how that plays into him as a Complete Monster.
Check out my fanfiction!
I haven't seen the movie yet, but the idea of Kyubey doing something out of spite seems way out of line with his established character.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm...Spider-Man Noir Though he gets redeemed near the ending. Even Evil Has Standards, apparently.
Cut that line, or cut Doc Ock?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Looks like When They Cry and Transformers are being worked on. What about Artix Entertainment?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Regardless of what its doing, the net result is that Kyubey is actively trying to screw Madoka and her wish over, which is a pretty spiteful act.
Minor change proposal for Unalaq in The Legend of Korra and Western Animation. It describes Unalaq and Tonraq's fight as a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown, but like I've said, it doesn't fit the trope so it should be changed to Curbstomp Battle as their fight was not "brutally violent" by any standard.
edited 21st Nov '13 5:50:18 PM by Eagal
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!