During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
I'm gonna rest soon, I pulled an all nighter last night now my head feels off.
I'll be back to the thread later.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Lizzid people!
Fan Works methinks. Because I don't think Mechakara is technically affiliated with Channel Awesome anymore.
Edited by AustinDR on Aug 2nd 2019 at 2:26:05 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Have a good rest.
Edited by falcontalons on Aug 2nd 2019 at 2:23:30 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, I just realized Scar's going to fanfic.
Any mention of him deliberately devastating the Pride Lands? Also, why does he do that?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lizzid people!
He sends the hyenas out to get more food which scared off the herds. I already mentioned that in the EP.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
No, I mean I got that, but if that was his goal, how would that help him?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lizzid people!
The devastation was the after effect. That wasn't his goal. The main idea was he took and groomed Simba so he could use him to take over the Pride Lands and also to completely break Mufasa before killing him.
Edited by AustinDR on Aug 2nd 2019 at 2:46:38 AM
We've been over this several times ACW. Linkara's no longer part of Channel Awesome, so even if Channel Awesome does get a tree, Mechakara and any other possible Atopthefourthwall candidates wouldn't go under it.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Ah, gotcha. Still even leaving that aside, "manipulating a son to kill his own father" seems a rather unique crime.
Got it.
Hey! I have quite a few characters that I intend to propose in the near-future, but before posting them I have some questions just to make sure they're worth the shot, I hope it's okay if I ask them here:
- Is it possible for a character to count even if he pretends to be in love with the main female character and tries not to hurt her (well, not too much at least. Kidnapping her is still fine for him...), but mostly acts as a creepy stalker towards her and is clearly only interested in her for her looks, not for her as a person?
- Is it possible for character to count even if half the episodes of the series in which he appeared are missing, meaning it's unknown (albeit very unlikely, considering the kind of person he is...) if he showed redeeming qualities and/or mitigating factors in those?
- Is it possible for a character from a wacky comedy to count if he's portrayed (mostly) seriously (maybe not to the point he could be considered as a Knight of Cerebus, but he has less humor than the other characters and the scenes where he commits crimes are played straight, for the most part)?
- Is it possible for a character to count even if he's fictional In-Universe, or if the story's events are revealed to be All Just a Dream at the end (although there are elements of Or Was It a Dream? just before the credits)? Closest thing to an example I'm aware of is the case of the two brothers Wapol and Musshuru in the ninth One Piece movie, but I think it was only revealed to be All Just a Dream in the TV version, so it's not really a good example...
- Is it possible for an alternate future's version of a character to count even if his regular version (presumably) doesn't? The only example I'm familiar with is Spider-Smith... But what if a character is the Big Bad of a series, and has a few redeeming qualities (though that's open to discussion), but in an episode we meet a version of him from an alternate future who is much worse than his present self and clearly lost all of his (debatable) redeeming qualities?
- Is it possible for character to count even if he's mostly Played for Laughs in the first half of the series, but becomes much more serious and sinister in the (Darker and Edgier) second half?
- Is it possible for a character to count even if he had a very minor role and only appeared in two brief scenes, but committed one of the worst crime of the work during this short time (like a genocide, for example)?
- Is it possible for a character to count even if he only tries to kill animals, but acts like a total psycho about it?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- Maybe; I'd need more information.
- Possibly, but I'd be hesitant.
- Maybe.
- FWIW, we have 2 Are You Afraid of the Dark? entries.
- I'd say so. We have Future!Byakuran.
- I'd say yes. Not-So-Harmless Villain.
- If it's onscreen, and they have enough personality, sure. Look at Harley Quinn.
- ONLY animals? I'd say no, unless the animals are sapient (otherwise Cruella would've probably been on there LONG ago).
@Mimic
1. If they don't care for them as a person, then yes.
2. Yes. If that wasn't the case, than no character could qualify unless they appeared 100 percent of the time.
3. Depends on the context, but usually yeah.
4. For fictional in universe, yes, so long as there's enough subtance for the in-universe fictional story to be a story on it's own terms. We have several of those. For All Just a Dream though, not sure, but probably not since being a figment of one's imagination would impair moral agency.
5. Absolutely. We have alternate future version of characters as CMs
6. Yeah. With the likes of Xykon or Archie Sonics Robotnik, they can be treated like a joke for the beginning but still qualify if they're treated seriously later on.
7. Really depends on the context. If they do enough to stand out in heinousness with their minmal screentime , they can count.
8. Unless the animals are sentient within the universe, then no.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Apparently in the early strips, he was more of a joke villain due to Early-Installment Weirdness
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Aug 2nd 2019 at 7:14:16 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Was Xykon EVER treated as a joke? Laughably Evil sure, but I can't remember him ever being a joke.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@ACW
- Well, imagine a character similar to Gaston from Beauty And The Beast (yes, that includes the tentative of blackmailing the heroine into becoming his wife). Except that he also often kills his own henchmen and tries to murder all of the hero's loved ones for a petty reason.
- There is little information about the missing episodes, but it seems that the guy did reappear in at least a few of them, apparently to commit more crimes.
- Okay.
- Do we have examples from works that are revealed to be All Just a Dream or something like that?
- Great.
- Well, actually I wouldn't say this is a case of Not-So-Harmless Villain, because the character was already fairly dangerous from the start and committed his fair share of horrible crimes... However, due to the series's humorous tone, he wasn't treated very seriously. In the second half of series on the other hand, the tone is darker, so the character and his (new) crimes are treated much more seriously.
- It's definitely onscreen, and while the guy doesn't get tons of personality, he still displays a dark sense of humor, I hope that's enough... (to be perfectly honest, his motivations aren't very much explored, but Fantastic Racism is heavily implied)
- I see. What if the animals are sentient, but the guy wasn't aware of that? (though I highly doubt that would stop him even if he knew. If anything, he would probably enjoy it even more...) Also, what if the guy also tried to murder some of the heroes, but actually he only succeeded in killing animals (BTW, his murders of animals are disturbingly brutal, and the guy is without a doubt the worst villain in the work)?
Edited by Mimic45 on Aug 2nd 2019 at 1:12:08 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- In that case, I'd say yeah, he could count.
- I'd be wary, but I'd say go for it.
- If the tone's darker, seems like he could count.
- That's an easy contender. Even if his motives aren't clear, the dark sense of humor is enough.
- If he doesn't KNOW the animals are sapient, I'm still not sure he could count. McLeach is apparently aware, but even beyond that, he tries to brutally kill a kid. Even trying to kill the heroes may not be bad enough. Now if he tries to kill other people, that's different. Though I'm curious now. Who is this character?
Edited by ACW on Aug 2nd 2019 at 7:17:58 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Rereading KH!Scar's EP I gotta ask:
When is it ever stated Scar wants to destroy the Pride Lands when he becomes a Heartless? Maybe when the Ground Shaker spawns, but by that point I'm hot sure he's still sapient.
I don't think he ever states he intends to destroy the Pridelands. Before or after becoming the Groundshaker. He's just Giant Heartless #42 million for the heroes to take down.
Reaffirming my ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
on KH Scar
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Aug 2nd 2019 at 7:22:21 AM
I've never seen us keep a character who targeted sentient animals and was not aware they were sentient. We said no to the Isle of Dogs villain, it's too much of a leap to assume they'd do the same if they knew without explicit evidence.
Actually, that makes me wonder. Why did we turn down those Wild Thornberry movie villains if they were going to kill a ton of elephants that they knew were sentient? (Along with trying to kill the heroes) Forgot the reason they were turned down
Tomato, tomahto
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Aug 2nd 2019 at 7:31:51 AM
Lizzid people!
You mean sapient?
@Awesomekid 42: There wasn't any real evidence that the poachers believed the idea that the animals were sapient, and the poachers' attempt at killing the elephants wasn't treated with the gravity of killing a thousand people.
Edited by falcontalons on Aug 2nd 2019 at 4:35:55 AM
Oh. Thought they were explicitly aware. In that case, fair enough.
What if the guy also tried to kill one or two random bystanders just because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time (although he was still primarily focused on killing the heroes), and also violently abuses his henchmen whenever he's in a bad mood (which is often)? Also, he's secretly planning to betray his boss and take his place (it's not explicitly said, but it's very likely that he was planning to murder him)...
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm, that's a borderline. I'd say effortpost that character.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Should Scar and Mechakara go under a Channel Awesome tree, or nah?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts