During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Doctor. Abstain on the general.
Get well soon Mir
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Abastaining on Kreigkopf. I was gonna visit that game but I'm not that into the Punisher that I can't rightly make a heinous judgment on the villains.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Eh, we allowed Napoleon, and we have numerous CMs with little characterization (NCIS, Criminal Minds, etc.), so I'll give a yes to Kreigkopf.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Beast: I think the game's its own universe, but even besides that: Human Trafficking and trying to nuke NYC is easily heinous enough; hell, it would be even for MAX. I don't think the 616 Kreigkopf, CM he may be, was involved with human trafficking, and "only" tried to nuke Brussels instead of the more-populated NYC.
Edited by ACW on Apr 23rd 2019 at 2:34:09 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
A weak yes to Kreigkopf.
Thanks for handling that for me Tyk. Sorry for pawning it off on you.
Edited by Bullman on Apr 23rd 2019 at 1:42:33 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
to Kreigkopf.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
No problem. Sorry it took me two...three(?) months to get to it. >__<
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
No problem. You did a good job with the EP. And it was worth the wait.
Doctor and Kreigkopf
Okay, I've read all comics based on "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe" franchise (from the very first Mattel mini-comics) and I think I found two possible candidates from two recent crossover mini-series.
What's the Work
"He-Man/Thundercats" (2016-2017) and "Injustice vs Masters of the Universe" (2018-2019) is two newest 6 issue crossover mini-series, depicting crossovers between He-Man and Thundercats and He-Man and "Injustice Among Us" universe. Both published by DC Comics and not canon to the 2012 "He-Man" comics from the same company. The Premise of first crossover is simple, as He-Man and Thundercats worlds come in to contact with each other and threaten to collide, Skeletor and Mumm-Ra (main antagonists of each franchise) unite in order to destroy their enemies and take over the multiverse, as He-Man and Thundercats trying to stop them. Premise of second crossover is He-Man going to Injustice universe to help Insurgency defeat power mad Superman.
My candidates are villains of the first crossover (with one of them being one of the antagonists in second) - Skeletor and Mumm-Ra.
Who are They/What Have They Done
As Ancient Spirits of Evil (masters of Mumm-Ra) going tired with Mum-Ra's constant failures, they get contacted by Skeletor, who offers to be their new champion in exchange for Sword of Power (He-Man's weapon, which he uses to transform from Prince Adam to He-Man). Mumm-Ra unite both worlds (an action, that if prolonged could destroy both worlds) and creates a plan to trick He-Man and kill him, as he takes away the sword (while using both his minions and Skeletor's "Evil Warriors"). As he goes to his masters to report job well done, Skeletor takes away the sword and disintegrates him, promising to serve Spirits of Evil as his replacement, while secretly planning to betray them. Skeletor devised this plan in order to get Sword of Power and use Mumm-Ra's remains (even as Mumm-Ra begs him to spare him) to create a potion for him (which he drinks) to channel Power of Greyskull to him, so that he can obtain He-Man's power and gain access to Castle Greyskull and its secrets and power.
As Skeletor prepares to head to Castle Greyskull, he gets attacked by arriving team of Thundercats, who come for Sword of Power. While Skeletor fight's them off, Mumm-Ra attempts to take over his body in revenge for what Skeletor did to him. The resulting struggle allows Thundercats to obtain the sword and Skeletor forced to flee. They fight over control of the body, but since they too evenly matched, Skeletor proposes an alliance. Together they enslaved Ancient Spirits of Evil (who took form of titanic beasts) and order them to destroy everything until they find Sword of Power. The resulting massacre deatroys nearly all Eternia with countless lives being lost (children included). What left of Eternian army united with Thundercats and tried to fight back. With great struggle they manage to defeats the Titans, but Skeletor and Mumm-Ra fused in to extremely powerful being Mumm-Ator and destroyed all the opposition that was remaining, with several of them being left barely alive.
As resurrected He-Man and Lion-O (leader of Thundercats) arrive at the battlefield, they go to the depths of Castle of Greyskull and arrive at Nexus, realm between realms and gateway to all dimensions. They try to stop Mumm-Ator, as he threatens to kill Sorceress (guardian of the castle) if He-Man and Lion-O don't give away their magic swords, as they are the key to the Orb of Power, which will allow Mumm-Ator to take over entire multiverse. As they take the Orb away from him, they run to all other dimensions (including one, where He-Man is Superman and work at Daily Planet and amalgam world of Thundercats and Masters of the Universe) while Mumm-Ator chases them. After a fight, Mumm-Ator managed to take away the Orb and magic swords and begins to channel its power in himself, but He-Man and Lion-O unite their magic power and manage to separate Mumm-Ator back in to Skeletor and Mumm-Ra and banish them.
Here story ends for one villain, but not for another. Weakened Skeletor gets trapped in another dimension (from Injustice universe) as the result of this, he was found by Darkseid, whom he manipulate to attack Eternia, by giving away Eternia's location and the fact that Anti-Life Equation is in depths of Castle Greyskull. Later on he enters in service to Power Mad Superman and begins to collect magic artifacts seemingly for him, while in secret planning to betray everyone. As Darkseid invade Eternia and break in Castle Greyskull, Skeletor reveals that he stole magic power from old wizard Shazam and attacks Darkseid in order to take all power there for himself. While he manages to make few hits, Darkseid ultimately overpowered him and prepared to make him his first test of Anti-Life Equation. But Superman stopped him and together with Adam they manage to kill Darkseid. As Superman now possessed Anti-Life Equation, Orb of Power and Sword of Power, Skeletor tried to make it look like he was planning that from the beginning for Superman to succeed, but unconvinced Superman pierced his arm through his chest and left Skeletor to die, as he tries to use Anti-Life Equation on everyone in order to go back in the past and save Lois. When He-Man managed to kill Superman, Skeletor's body disappeared, hinting he survived and escaped.
Freudian Excuse/Mitigating Factors
Not an inch. Skeletor and Mumm-Ra enters partnership only because of necessity (both tried to kill each other before and become allies only because they couldn't defeat each other and rather waste strength to take over the universe). They begin complement each other later on, but it was only because they like each other's evil tricks and abilities. Mumm-Ra possesses no loyalty to his masters and gladly enslaved them.
In second crossover Darkseid said that Skeletor possibly desired to be loved, but it never clarified if it was "All Take No Give" kind of love (like God from "Preacher") or something else. After being pierced by Superman and left to die, Skeletor said to Adam that he missed He-Man, but the way it looks, it's probably because he missed the ways He-Man dealt with him and didn't like cruelty and merciless approach of Superman.
Heinous Standard
Both worst in the first crossover. In second they got competition in face of Darkseid and evil Superman, but considering their lack of resources (no army of Darkseid nor brainwashing powers of Superman, which he got from Brainiac and used to create his own army, just themselfs and few not very powerful minions) and the fact that Darkseid and Superman were both much more powerful than them, they manage to stand out. Thousands of dead, Eternia in ruins and intended taking over of the multiverse with countless deaths as a result, plus Skeletor manipulated both Darkseid and Superman, adding to his bodycounts several hundreds more victims from Darkseid invasion of Eternia.
Final Verdict
I want to know what others think.
to Skeletor, Mumm-Ra, and Kreigkopf. I wonder who else qualifies in that Punisher game?
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 23rd 2019 at 8:52:53 AM
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Nobody. All the other villains have redeeming qualities or they don't stand out enough.
Yea to all the above
The Draftsman of Doom
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
And for Skeletor and Mumm-Ra. I'm not gonna try to digest how a trifecta crossover like that works. Tis how comics work now, I guess.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
That's fine.
Edited by Tyk5919 on Apr 23rd 2019 at 3:14:14 PM
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Skeletor and Mumm-Ra.
Hey man. Mind if I do Kreigkopf's write up?
Edited by Bullman on Apr 23rd 2019 at 2:05:58 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So both crossovers are the same continuity? I guess they'll just go to DC Comics under other continuities; I guess under H for He-Man?
Sure to both regardless.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yeah, both crossovers in the same continuity. By the way, can i know why Hordak and Skeletor from 2012 comics are not listed under He-Man's YMMV page?
to Skeletor and Mumm-Ra
Kreigkopf, Mumm-Ra, and Skeletor.
to Kreigkopf, Mumm-Ra and Skeletor.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Probably because I wasn't sure where exactly to put it. I've added it at the end of YMMV.Masters Of The Universe.
Nice to see this thread doing all right. I approve of Skeleton-Man, that mummy guy (I'd make a Ric Flair joke but that might fly over people's heads - it's a Two Best Friends running gag that Ric Flair is a mummy) and I guess that crazy general.
I have beaten Mortal Kombat 11's story mode. The final boss was a bitch. But I haven't done the Arcade Ladders/Klassik Towers yet, so no spoilers for character endings please. There might be relevant stuff there but I'll check them out when I get around to it.
Doctor, Kriegkopf, Skeletor and Mumm-Ra
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Tyk: Thanks I will try to get it as soon as I can. ACW can you mark me down for it.
Edited by Bullman on Apr 23rd 2019 at 3:13:06 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Bullman: Done.
Polar: I won't spoil anything, but arcade mode non-canon endings I don't think we usually take into consideration.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
So. Now that I'm finally finished with a story I've been working on for the past several weeks—and now that I got some personal dilemmas in real life sorted out—I can spend the next few weeks sorting through my oversized To-Do List. Starting with revisiting The Punisher, now that I got around to plugging up my old, dusty-ass PS2 console.
Who Is He?
General Kreigkopf is the Arc Villain for the second portion of the game, and the leader of a Russian Syndicate comprised mostly of mercenaries.
What Has He Done?
After Frank Castle destroyed the Gnucci Family's organization, he discovered that General Kreigkopf was associated with them, having supplied the Gnuccis with drugs and money from the harbor. As Castle mows down the Russians and destroys one of their tankers, he also discovers that Kreigkopf managed to smuggle a fully-functional tank into New York City—which Frank ends up destroying as well. During his investigation, Castle finds out that Kreigkopf is trying to smuggle a nuke into the country; he and Black Widow decide to intercept two of the Russians' tankers. Castle sneaks onto the Igor Baltiysky, and it's here where he finds out that Kriegkopf is also involved with a human trafficking ring, where he spots the ship's captain abusing one of two Russian civilians who were kidnapped and locked inside a shipping container. Castle manages to rescue the civilians, kills the ship's captain, and blows up the tanker.
Knowing Castle is becoming an issue, Kreigkopf sends the Russian to Castle's apartment to try and kill him. Unsurprisingly, he fails, although the Russian escapes from Castle's building before Castle can kill him. While on Grand Nixon Island, Kreigkopf prepares to strike back at America with the nuke, having fully assembled it. As the general furiously gets his mercenaries to activate the nuke, Frank Castle and various S.H.I.E.L.D. agents storm the island. Castle and Nick Fury mow through the mercs, but the rest of Fury's team is Killed Offscreen. Fury eventually corners Kreigkopf at the launchpad, but is knocked out by the Russian. As Kreigkopf goes to launch the missile, Castle arrives at the launchpad, gets into another fight with the Russian, and eventually kills him. Castle finally reaches Kreigkopf, but Castle is already too late: the missile is about to launch. Seeing no other option, Castle activates a set of locking clamps so the nuke won't be able to leave the island. As for General Kreigkopf, Frank Castle either shoots him to death or (my personal favorite) grabs him, shoves him underneath the missile's flames, and watches as he is burned alive while screaming his ass off.
Freudian Excuse?
He hates Americans. ...I guess. :/
General Kreigkopf doesn't have much backstory compared to some of the other villains in the game.
Redeeming Qualities?
None.
Heinous Standard Issues?
Game's got three arc villains: the Gnuccis, the Russians, and the Yakuza. The Gnuccis, run by Ma Gnucci and her two sons, are responsible for drug dealing, they run a carjacking ring, they kidnap Frank Castle's neighbor Joan and nearly feed her to piranhas, and they're responsible for the deaths of various security guards at a zoo.
The Yakuza, run by Jigsaw, tries to take over the city's drug and crime organizations after Castle takes out the Gnucci family and the Russians, they attack Stark Industries and kill a few dozen people, and stage a prison riot that results in the deaths of many guards.
The Russians, run by General Kreigkopf, are revealed to be collaborating with the Gnuccis, supplying them with drugs from the harbor, and they also try to sneak a tank into the city. They also have their own human trafficking ring where they kidnap and sell women into New York City to fuel the city's prostitution ring. And General Kreigkopf's overall plan was to launch a nuclear missile at the city, which obviously would've killed millions.
Even compared to Ma Gnucci and Jigsaw, Kreigkopf seems to pass the threshold.
Final Verdict?
Really the biggest problem I have with Kreigkopf is his screentime and character. He only appears onscreen in the tenth mission—and dies in the same one. Most of his character consists of him barking and shouting at his mercenaries, ordering them to fend off attackers on the island and to help him arm the nuke.
So it's another Emperor Napoleon XII situation. I'll let you guys decide.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.