During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
No Name.
to Carlos and that other guy.
So way back when, in a time called The 90's Disney had bit of a trend of writing animated series that serves as sequels, or in a few cases prequels, to their big animated movies. This trend has made something of a comeback in recent years but we're gonna talk about one of the older examples.
The Legend of Tarzan is an animated series that serves as a sequel to Disney's Tarzan, focusing on the titular characters further adventures as lord of the jungle with his friends (although if you ask me they could have done with a little less Terk and Tantor, and some of the dialogue can be cringey). They also adapted some elements from the older books as well.
I had two or three villains in mind but I felt a little more confidant with this one. Introducing Queen La.
Who is Queen La ? What does she do ?
La is a mystical queen who rules a legendary lost kingdom of Opar. She also has magic powers and rules using an army of enslaved leopard people she has a nasty habit of incinerating left right and centre. One day one of her minions abduct Professor Porter in the jungle and take him back to La. Because La sees no use in him she orders him to be sacrificed (vaporizing a few of her mooks for their failure). Tarzan and his friends arrive in time to rescue Porter, and La immediately finds herself infatuated with Tarzan. She invites them to stay as guests as she tries to put the moves on Tarzan, and has her followers throw Jane over a waterfall in secret. Finding out about Jane's supposed death, Tarzan puts two and two together and immediately realizes La's behind this and she drops the act of civility. She attempts to force Tarzan to marry her by threatening to sacrifice him. Luckily Jane's still alive and manages to rescue Tarzan by setting La's palace on fire. Fight ensues, our heroes escape and La promises revenge as she "can be stubborn too".
Next episode we find out about the Leopard people being enslaved into the monsters they are and want to go back to normal. Good news is the Queen of Opar has the power to free them, bad news is La isn't letting them go any time soon. So the leopard people plan on starting a rebellion and instilling a new queen of Opar, and they pick Jane. Pa flees and feigns innocence to Tarzan offering to help him rescue Jane. On their way they sneak through La's dungeons were La continues to flirt with Tarzan; he says he's not interested, she says neither were her previous suitors before the camera pans to the skeletons she has lined up for on her dungeon walls.
After they rescue Jane, La gets her magic staff back and takes control of her kingdom again, and executes two of the leopard people to remind them who their master is. Jane later tells Tarzan the truth about what the leopard people intended and they decide to rescue them. La keeps the rebels leader alive so she can think of a good enough execution for him, deciding on feeding him to a kraken like monster she just has in her dungeon. When Tantor is sent in as a distraction, La quickly catches onto this before Tarzan and Jane start the final battle; during which La incinerates about a dozen of her former followers and Tarzan rescues the rebel leader seemingly getting himself killed in the process. La mocks and prepares to kill a mourning Jane before Tarzan turns up alive and gets the drop on La. Tarzan tosses La's staff to Jane, who gets La's powers (and outfit) using them to free the leopard people from their curse turning them back to their original forms (leopards) and kills La via rapid aging when she breaks the staff.
Despite her physical death La returns in the episode aptly named "Return of La". Her spirit possesses what appears to be a wounded gazelle that Jane happens upon in the woods before La possesses her. La seeks to take back control of her kingdom and asks Tarzan to help but gets nowhere due to Tarzan noticing Jane's acting off. La instead gets help from a man named Dumat to take her back to Opar - when a suspicious Tarzan follows them, La causes a rockslide that seemingly kills Tarzan before he's revived by a shaman who reveals that La was once one of his people and got the typical "villain was once one of us, became evil after learning evil magic and now our people have to fight them" backstory. Tarzan and the shaman team up to stop La when she finds and repairs her staff, but seemingly the only way to do so is to kill Jane, with the shaman saying that Jane is good as dead already. At her former palace, La brings giant statues to life to kill Tarzan starting they won't stop until they get the job done. Tarzan pretends he's going for a Heroic Suicide Taking You with Me by tackling La/Jane from a tower, causing La to possesses Tarzan. Admiring the superior body she's in, La now intends to kill Jane using Tarzan's body for the sake of ending their love story on a tragic note before the statue attacks again. Jane manages to destroy the statue before La's sprit flees into a rat which is promptly captured by the shaman.
Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse ?
None. She's a charismatic, sadistic Faux Affably Evil Card-Carrying Villain as they come in a G-Rated series. Besides being drop dead sexy, there's nothing redeeming about her.
When she originally tries to woo Tarzan, she makes up a backstory about her being an orphan raised by the leopard people like Tarzan was with apes. But we later find out that story is total bullshit on her part.
Heinousness
Okay out of the three villains I had in mind (third one I've yet to check out btw), she's pretty bad all things considered; like there's that bit about her enslaving a kingdom and having an estimated onscreen bodycount of about a dozen, I'd say she clears the heinous standard.
I do think there's something that undercuts her bodycount that I will bring up here; she does state she killed the previous men who rejected her and showing the skeletons as proof, although I'll admit it's more of a throwaway line/shot on her part but it should be proof enough that her attempt to sacrifice Tarzan is something she's done before a few to her other "suitors". They also play her callously incinerating the leopard men as especially bad with Jane calling her out on her being wicked (which La takes as a compliment) but I think it might be undercut a little with the fact Jane seemingly resurrects all of them when she gets La's powers.
While she doesn't do anything that special in her last appearance, I did find a bit of personal cruelty on her part in wanting to kill Jane using Tarzan's body. Did I mention La is a bit of a sadist ?
I especially love this one line from her "Don't worry, I'm not gonna dispose of you. Not at least until I can find an especially gruesome and painful way of doing it." Evil Laugh
Edited by Beast on Jan 18th 2019 at 3:45:35 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to the above two.
Edited by Bullman on Jan 18th 2019 at 4:46:36 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Yea to the Revenger duo. Man, this thread's too fast for me to catch up with nowadays.
Queen La... eh, I have to say "no" after consideration and reflection. I remember Tarzan pretty well and I looked back on La. From what I remember, she's nastier than the usual Saturday morning Disney villain, but not that much nastier... boasting an onscreen body-count matters less when those leopard guys were presented as kind of disposable demons/What Measure Is a Mook? (and half of them were trying to kill her). The rest doesn't push her that far from generic villainy for me, either.
Anyways, gonna slice these two off before they start accumulating again:
- Red Hood: The Lost Days: Egon, the first of a resurrected Jason Todd's new teachers Talia points him to, is a professional killer openly Only in It for the Money who turns out to have far darker past-times. Egon trains Red Hood in the art of murder, keeping him at arm's length from his affairs and beating one of his goons to death when he tries to let Todd in on Egon's secret: he's a child sex trafficker. Egon's latest shipment alone is forty-two children ready to be shipped off as sex toys, with his talking of the regular deaths in previous batches as minor inconveniences.
- Laverne & Those Damn Cultists: Lord Alathon is the leader of the Order of the Eldritch Gate, brushed off as a raving madman until he and his cult start engaging in brutal sacrifice, leaving four murdered with their throats cut and the Elder Sign upon them all across Whitechapel. When Laverne and his men interrupt his affairs and interrupt an attempted fifth sarcifice, Alathon reveals his plans to let the Great Old Ones rise to enslave and feast on all humanity, as he rises above the ashes a god.
Edited by Scraggle on Jan 18th 2019 at 3:05:02 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Lizzid people!
Abstaining on Queen La. She was a looker, though.
Edited by AustinDR on Jan 18th 2019 at 2:10:25 AM
Revenger's The Dragon. Queen La
No to La. Likewise, can someone explain how she's heinous enough? She's bad but not so bad as to qualify here. This is mostly normal generic villainy.
Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 18th 2019 at 2:04:03 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
....
Im on Scraggs and Austin side regarding Queen La. This girl is also on my to do list actually ._.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to the the other Revenger guy.
Any more votes on the quote? We got 5 for C, 2 for B, and only myself for A.
La and Revenger duo
I'm not sure how killing men who reject you, enslaving an entire race, killing members of said race who rebel against the slavery, and trying to kill a woman using her lover's body isn't bad enough.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Ike
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
to La and the Revenger duo.
Lizzid people!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That is a valid point.
Edited by AustinDR on Jan 18th 2019 at 2:11:20 AM
Reason I picked La as being heinous enough over, say, that Gorilla Keith David voices - I counted the number she sucesfully/attempts to kill onscreen. Pretty simple.
Also of note on La; in the original novels she was supposedly a blood priestess, cannibal and constantly naked. But, y'know, G-Rated show.
Edited by Beast on Jan 18th 2019 at 4:15:07 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
From what I recall? It's not played near as bad as it could and should be here for this.
Ultimate Moral Compass
And a to Kuhn's dragon
That guy who worked for Kuhn.
Also reiterating my support for Nyarly's Quote A.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Anyways... Speaking of not heinous enough, so I just finished an anime called Rakudai Kishi no Cavalry or Chivalry of the Failed Knight and I have two candidates in mind but I feel that they fail the heinous standard. Lets start with their crimes shall we. Both of them had no redeeming qualities to speak of but I want to give a rundown:
- Bishou's crimes: (The leader of a terrorist organization)
- Took an entire mall as a hostage (only women and children) with his terrorist group and drugged some of tbe guards.
- Asking a lot of money with the exchange of the hostages
- Tries to kill the mother since she failed to discipline her child
- Knocks Stella (the female protagonist who is the princess) out with Judgement Ring
- Orders Stella to be stripped naked
- When discovering that there is another Blazers among the hostages, he orders his subordinates to kill all of the women and children (Fortunately they still survived thanks to the barrier)
- Mamoru Akaza's crimes: (A slimy douchebag who works for Ikki Kurogane's father):
- Sends one of his mercenaries to attack Ikki (the male protagonist) and Stella in a remoted cottage in Episode 9
- Doesnt care if his subordinate getting electrocuted by the head student and tries to figure out how to defeat Ikki
- Trying to make a relationship of Ikki and Stella to be a full-blown scandal which resulted on Ikki getting imprisoned.
- Using a kangaroo court to make Ikki convinces himself that hes guilty regarding his scandal with Stella
- Tries to make a selection match of his own in the prison Ikki resides which resulted on Ikki losing energy
- Intended to make Ikki lose the fight against Toudou, the first rank student of the academy and esentially the strongest of them.
- Tries to attack Ikki after the latter wins the fight against Toudou because he refuses to accept it.
So yeah. With that being said... I'm not sure if they breach the heinous standard. Other guys who are heinous as them but not enough? Shizuya Kirihara who torments Ikki by shooting him with an arrow frequent times , Kuraudo Kurashiki who made someone else fell into coma and took over his establishment and Ikki's father who doesnt care about his son getting beaten and doesnt support Ikki's dream which made Ikki on a worse state than before although he ended up getting better at the end of the day.
Because of this, do you think that Bishou and Mamoru can make it in your opinion? I can make an EP if you want.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
I'd say La's actions are still played seriously enough; the bit about the Leopard people at least garners a You Monster! reaction from Jane. And it's not like the show shys away from saying "kill" or "die".
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lizzid people!
Edging towards a "sure" for her now.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Revenger duo.
To that other revenger guy and I think I’ll give Queen La a tentative
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, right, forgot Polar's vote. So it's 2-2-5 for Nyarly.
Queen La
◊. This is a kids' show.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Bump
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
My own Revenger EP? Kun's right-hand man.
Who is he?
With no name I can recall, Kun's dragon is a vicious, psychopathic killer who loves terrorizing those on the island. Under his own volition to advance Kuhn's agenda, but mostly for the carnage, this fellow terrorizes other prisoners and slaughters at will, attacking the village of Bau, the one holdout who refuses to submit to Kun, to massacre those at the village. Oh, and also? He enjoys kidnapping people for Kuhn and releasing them to be hunted down for sport by his own band of psychopaths. When our hero Jin locates the villains, it turns out the chief henchman captures multiple villagers, including the friend of the little girl Jin named Truong...and with a huge grin, has Truong's throat slit.
He then leads a violent attack on the village, massacring most everyone there, before trying to kill Maly, the woman mentioned in Jackie's post who's there to kill Kun, right in front of Jin for the fun of it, killing Bau when he tries to interfere and tries to murder little Jin with her own knife. Thankfully, Yul interferes and takes them on, ending by killing the dragon with a solid hit, before going on to engage Kun.
Any mitigating Factors?
No, not at all. While he's a ruthless sociopath, he's clearly not too loyal to Kun, being only in it for the carnage and the fun of it. He's a sadistic sociopath with a huge bodycount, tries to murder a child after trying to kill her mom in front of her and stands out handily, lack of a name nonwithstanding.
Conclusion?
Another yes.