During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Will Razorline have enough entries to get its own group on the Marvel page, or do you think it can just be lumped other the Other Continuities group?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Cool.
edited 5th Jun '18 10:13:42 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Depends on how many more I find. I say if it ends up with four or more? Give it its own header. And I've got a fair few yet I'm looking into who may or may not keep.
edited 5th Jun '18 9:59:34 AM by Scraggle
Giving an official nay to Klas
Goku Black
Ditto
Going with ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
on Klaus as well
edited 5th Jun '18 10:32:13 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Having recently watched Bullying, I would like to nominate Nacho for a cut. Looking at how the Monty discussion went as well as how we have cut villains who have committed only one or two murders/rapes such as [[Irreversible Le Tena]] and [[Narutaru Aki Honda]].
Here's the write up:
- Bullying: Nacho is a great example of how severe bullying can be. This is demonstrated by him forcing Jordi to wet himself on camera, forcing him to drink alcohol and smoke who-knows-what, subsequently pointing a gun at his head, fracturing his dog's leg and manipulating him into dropping from the basketball team to do his bidding with the threat of more violence and humiliation, a continuous chain of abuse. He goes on to try to rape and kill Jordi. This culminates in Jordi committing suicide.
Making someone wet themself or smoke aren't even really evil things to do just jerkass fare, and abusing a dog is bog-standard asshole behavior.
Now the attempted murder/rape part is indeed a cross over the Moral Event Horizon but a single attempted murder and rape isn't really enough to make a CM. In fact I can't recall any examples where a candidate counted with just one attempt.
Messenger from another dimension.
Cut Nacho.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, I'm fine with cutting Nacho.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Axe him. Baffled as to how he's stayed up this long, honestly.
Yeah, cut Nacho.
Goku Black
cut Nacho
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Sure, cut away.
As we discussed? Cut Nacho.
edited 5th Jun '18 11:30:21 AM by DemonDuckofDoom
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'll file that cut tomorrow.
BTW, after doing some skimming, there MAY be another Punisher MAX candidate. I'll read the arc in full. It's not from Ennis's run, and it's not the previously-cut Bullseye or Kingpin.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Could have sworn we discussed to cut Nacho before. But yeah, cut him.
So, this character’s been on my head for a while now after somebody proposed Broly. I looked it up, and it seems that nobody proposed him, and after watching the movie, I figured he was worth discussing so I’m gonna be doing an effort post on Paragus, specifically the dub version.
Who is he? What does he do?
Paragus is the father of Broly, and the Big Bad of the first half of Dragon Ball Z: Broly – The Legendary Super Saiyan. Formerly a servant of King Vegeta, when King Vegeta ordered his son Broly to be executed out of fear for how powerful Broly could become when he grows up. Paragus pleads for King Vegeta to spare his son, and in response King Vegeta blasts Paragus, nearly killing him. You might be thinking how nice of a dad Paragus is, but trust me, that doesn’t last.
When Broly accidentally saves him and Paragus from planet Vegeta’s destruction, he starts to go out of control, and indiscriminately attacks planets, and even Paragus, gouging out one of his eyes in a rage. As a result, Paragus has a mind control device created, and forcibly put it on Broly to keep him in check. While in the japanese version, Paragus has some regret over this decision but deems it necessary, in the dub, Paragus sees this as an opportunity to use Broly as a tool for universal conquest.
Throughout the years, Paragus has had Broly attack and wipe out all life from countless planets. As the film opens up, we see that Broly has destroyed nearly all of the South Galaxy (in the japanese version, it was stated that the South Galaxy was simply attacked), with King Kai stating that the North Galaxy is next. Paragus had one planet in particular, Shamo, have countless of its inhabitants, mostly children, kidnapped and forced to work as slaves on a barren planet to create the illusion of it being a new Planet Vegeta after having Broly leave planet Shamo in ruins. Paragus regularly has Shamoians abused if they stop working for any reason.
Wishing to kill Vegeta for what his father did to him, Paragus comes to Earth, tricking Vegeta into believing that he needs Vegeta’s help to stop the Legendary Super Saiyan’s rampage. What Paragus truly intends for however is to keep Vegeta on New Vegeta long enough for a comet named Comet Camori, to crash into the planet, killing Vegeta, the Shamoians, and all of Paragus’s men. (Can I talk about how stupid this plan is? He has Broly under complete control, unless Goku is around, and he’s FAR stronger than Vegeta. Why not just sic Broly on him when Vegeta arrives on the planet instead of risking the possibility that Vegeta leaves the planet before the comet arrives? Which fun fact, Vegeta almost does until Goku’s presence causes Broly to go berserk. Or alternatively, just have Broly destroy New Vegeta from space while Vegeta’s sleeping on the planet. There are far simpler ways to kill Vegeta Paragus) When one underling in particular tells Paragus how he’s afraid of Comet Camori’s arrival, Paragus kills the underling for no reason other than his own amusement.
On the final day before Planet Camori comes to destroy New Vegeta, Goku tells Vegeta how Broly is the legendary super saiyan (Broly previously attacked Goku at night time but Paragus barely managed to get back control) and Trunks tells both of them about what Paragus does to the Shamoians. So, after revealing his intentions about how he led the group to the planet to have them killed by the comet and how he intends to conquer Earth to serve as his base of operations for his conquest, Paragus sics Broly on the heroes. However, Broly becomes too powerful for Paragus to control with the device any longer, and it gets destroyed. As a result, Paragus attempts to flee the planet, abandoning his son for dead. While in the japanese version Paragus expresses regret over this, in the dub, Paragus states that Broly now means nothing to him now that he can no longer control him, blatantly abandoning any care he had for Broly in the past. Broly notices Paragus trying to escape in a pod, and crushes it, killing Paragus.
Heinous by the standards of the story?
The only CMs in Dragon Ball to have a higher body counter than Paragus (albeit Paragus’s is through Broly rather than directly) are Zamasu and possibly Freeza so I’d argue so. He’s essentially Babidi to a greater scale.
King Vegeta trying to kill him and Broly would serve as a somewhat understandable excuse for why he wants to kill Vegeta, but only that. His main goal of universal conquest and destruction of countless planets via Broly is all on him.
Any other mitigating factors?
As I made clear in the effort post, the Japanese version of Paragus did care for Broly, even when he attempted to abandon him for dead. The dub version does away with all that, with him viewing Broly as no more than a tool for his own gain. The dub does include a line of Paragus saying “sorry my dear son” as he flees, but with this being followed by talking about how useless Broly is to him now, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t sincere.
Only thing that makes me hesitate is how the narrative puts more focus on Broly than Paragus, but Paragus’ crimes (both through Broly and through his Comet Camori plan) are still treated with magnitude and horror.
Final thoughts?
There's something bugging me about his inclusion that I can't put my finger on (probably the aforementioned Broly taking the spotlight away from him, but again, Babidi). I’ll let you guys decide.
edited 5th Jun '18 12:01:55 PM by Awesomekid42
V
I'm gonna give a to Paragus. His motives, past, and general goal, I never saw as him "using as an excuse for conquering the world" or whatever, but as an actual excuse.
Also, R.I.P. Beck candidates. Klas was the most heinous I could find. Anyway, Wallander has a remorseless and traitorous Serial Rapist who I've been thinking about for a long time, so that is something.
edited 5th Jun '18 11:53:42 AM by MenInGreyToBlak
...How does what King Vegeta did to him explain universal conquest and galactic destruction? The only times Paragus connects King Vegeta to any of Paragus's actions is trying to get Vegeta killed.
shrugs Fair. Though no saiyan did it to as great a scale as Paragus did, so that caused him to stand out to me.
edited 5th Jun '18 11:59:33 AM by Awesomekid42
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Dunno, I don't think that My King tried to kill me, now I Will Take Over the World using my Overpowered gifted kid as my weapon is a good excuse
Said this, Paragus is a old saiyan, his entire race dedicated to conquest and warfare, it makes sense that even if he ended up as The Last of His Kind , he would become a conqueror. He's not different from Nappa or Early Vegeta.
Also, doubt if he meets the heinous standard. Sure, we saw the South Galaxy disappearing, but dunno, DB tend to be more graphic with this stuff, is like when we cut the Hate Sink Torturer from Berserk because while his torture of Griffith was as awful as a regular human being can be in the series...we see more graphic stuff everytime, making the Gory Discretion Shot torture being basically Offscreen Villainy
We saw the Galaxy banish, but dunno, DB tend to be more graphic with this type of destruction.
edited 5th Jun '18 12:01:22 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
Paragus
This is DBZ, and I don't see him fitting the heinous standard. He's not as bad as Frieza or Cell IMO, Babidi is the one he is closest too, but I feel like Babidi's attempted torture on the kids and Piccolo with his Bad Boss tendencies makes him worse. Also I feel like Paragus' excuse is somewhat legitimate.
Plus Saiyan's as a whole are fucking evil, except for Goku's family, as they were conquerors.
edited 5th Jun '18 12:00:23 PM by ReynTime250
The Unknown Unknown
Paragus.
I think we've bled Dragon Ball dry of future and past candidates unless they start going Alternate Universe with different continuities.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Goku Black
paragus
Well there going to be having a movie soon that will shed more light on the relationship that frieza had with the saiyans, so who knows maybe he'll get an expansion.
I'd say Paragus is much, much worse than Cell. Cell comes nowhere near Paragus in body count..
Thinking about it, Cell is probably the least heinous CM in all of Dragon Ball, unless one were to count that one-off line about him going on to destroy the universe as part of his actions.
edited 5th Jun '18 12:10:34 PM by Awesomekid42
V
As stated before, in my opinion, heinousness isn't the problem, but his excuse.
Cell sadistically stalked and murdered men, women and children, individual by individual, tried to wipe out the solar system and was going to proceed to do far more damage in the galaxy.
No to Paragus for reasons already given and echoing the sentiment that Dragon Ball has likely been bled dry of keepers for the time being.
Yes to Sigmoid. No to Ryuk and no to Klas due to how it is hard to tell if he actually ordered their deaths to be that brutal.
@ACW To be fair, since it did have foreshadowing/was feasible it doesn't count as an asspull, hell deus ex machinas by themselves aren't inherently bad depending on how they are executed. That and they are different from asspulls. But yeah out of context it looked weird, but it doesn't matter much, if they count they do.
edited 5th Jun '18 9:52:43 AM by Knack