Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Ben and Joe, Pumpkin

for Lord Pumpkin.

Also...

• The Degenerate is a twisted arsonist, obsessed with proving the true 'ugliness' of society. To this end, he targets beautiful artworks, historical sites and famous people, murdering large amounts of innocents with the fires he sets. When Solitaire is on his trail, he tracks the Degenerate to an orchestra performance where the Degenerate incinerates the conductor and attempts to burn down everyone in attendance. Escaping justice, the Degenerate casually murders a father in front of his daughter before attempting his most audacious and monstrous plan yet: kidnapping or buying dozens of children, the Degenerate takes them to a famous art museum, locked in barrels where he intends to burn them alive as his greatest statement, taking only one to be his apprentice when the child proves more sadistic than the rest. Obsessed with proving every human being is nothing more than 'slime,' the Degenerate delights in every fire he sets and the innocent lives he destroys.
• Rex Mundi is possibly the greatest villain the Ultraverse has ever known. Once a caveman changed by alien visitors into the first Ultra, Mundi proceeded to gain his freedom and tested his powers by slaughtering innocents left and right. Desiring a perfect 'utopia' to reign over, Mundi created a perfect mate who would eventually become known as Regina who broke from him due to the evil of his plans. Disgusted by the appearance of other Ultras, Mundi would create NM-E, a mechanical monster that hunts down and kills Ultras along with any innocents nearby. Over the course of centuries, Mundi has been responsible for the deaths of countless Ultras and innocents, while creating a web of criminal empires that foster more death and misery. Forming a deep enmity with the Ultra Hardcase, Mundi eventually reveals his true plans: to exterminate the Ultras to the last before he completely destroys the mind of all the billions of innocents on earth to serve him in his utopia. A tyrant with delusions of godhod, Mundi stands as one of the greatest threats ever faced by the Ultras.

Lord Pumkin

Handy 'Yes' to Lord Pumpkin, same as Lighty's duo. I'll have my Ultraverse—as well as all my other—write-ups posted later today, hopefully.

Now, on Doris (DOR-15 if you wanna be technical) from Robinsons? It's been awhile since I've seen the film, but I'm doubtful she (it?) counts. Doris probably has agency and is just a classic case of A.I. Is a Crapshoot, and she's played dead serious, but my issues are two-fold. First, she has no dialogue or character moments. Now yes, we know she's manipulative, evil, and megalomaniacal, but without any dialogue or even facial features to her? It's hard to grant her a personality of a CM.

Secondly and most damning IMO, is that her "master plan" really isn't CM-level. While the film treats her taking over the world as an awful occurrence (which it IS, don't get me wrong), it's pretty much just an average "mind control everyone on the planet" scheme. True, it's treated with a bit more horror than one would expect from something like this film, but it's really just a regular villain crime of "I want to brainwash all of humanity into becoming my slave labor for eternity!"

I'd be fine with an effortpost being made, but unless my issues could be countered, I'd likely be voting 'No.'

CMIIW but isnt me or does Michael Myers also doesnt have a dialogue or facial features when commiting a crime or is it just me? But eh.....I would be fine for EP for Doris even though she would not make it.

Ah yeah....That makes sense since Ambar does give solid points regarding Michael. And yeah, I do have some unpopular opinion regarding Doris does have at least a bit of intelligence due to the conversation with Bowler Hat Guy. But eh, I might be wrong

edited 28th Jan '18 9:30:45 AM by ElfenLiedFan90

Michael has body language which indicates pleasure at whats he doing and sadism.

He also does a bunch of stuff like stringing up his dead victims to scare his next intended victim which shows he does have a twisted and sadistic personality.

Yeah uh this is a weird comparison where is it coming from.

edited 28th Jan '18 9:35:37 AM by miraculous

Let's not compare a depraved, sadistic serial killer seen as the faceless embodiment of evil to an evil computer in an animated kids' movie.

While true, the thing is that Michael has not only, like miraculous said, body language and plenty of scenes where he shows rampant sadism, but also the fact that numerous characters, mainly his mental doctor Sam Loomis, give us insight into his personality as a pure evil monster who just enjoys killing.

Doris has none of that from my recollection. We see that she was supposed to help humanity, but turned evil for...reasons, and that's it. Every character reacts to her crimes while never giving us the sort of explanation or descriptions of her like we get with Michael. Why is she evil? What made her turn evil? Is her goal truly world domination, or is just part of a larger scheme to get back at the Robinsons for locking her away? These are the kinds of questions that often define characters, and Doris only has Alternative Character Interpretation going for her.

But, I'm just gonna hold any more discussion for her on my end until an effortpost possibly gets made. I could be remembering wrong, after all.

edited 28th Jan '18 9:37:10 AM by Ravok

Pumpkin.

Pumpkin

No way Doris counts. At all. Even barring out the characterization issues, she's nowhere near heinous enough; she manipulates Goob, kills a few people, and leads in a Bad Future that, to be honest, is utterly tame compared to what it could be (outright Apocalypse How).

So, even if an EP does get made — and I don't think it should, because I personally don't even see the merit in considering Doris — I'm a firm, firm nay.

To Lord Pumpkin.

Also of him possibly winning the award of the most weirdest punny named C Ms ever proposed in an EP.

My suspicions seem to have been correct, then.

Alright, I've got something I want to discuss....this is not gonna go over well with some people, but I feel it needs to be addressed. It hopefully won't end up as much of a crapstorm as Occasional Exister's debate on Joffrey, but I won't be surprised if some folks react badly, but please, bear with me, as I think I have new evidence and a solid argument to make.

Now, I've recently been reading through the Ultimate Comics, as we are all aware due to my Reed Richards proposal. In the midst of all my binging, though, I read Ultimate Avengers. I have issues with Red Skull.

Yes, mass murdering, baby killing Red Skull. Again, please hear me out. I've done extensive research into his discussions on the thread and I don't think some of what I'm about to bring up has been discussed. Now, first and foremost, for the uninitiated, here's his write-up and a bit of a mini-effortpost on him.

• Here, Red Skull is the son of Captain America, and therefore has a version of his powers. He's a killing machine, although that doesn't sum up the sick delight he takes in what he does. His atrocities include, at the age of 17, brutally killing nearly 250 soldiers, followed by skinning his own face; training terrorists and working with numerous historical monsters, including infamous mass-murderer and cannibal Idi Amin; shooting Kennedy just to send a message; and using the Cosmic Cube to force the members of A.I.M. to eat each other. And then there's his most infamous moment: he gives a woman—later the Red Wasp—a Sadistic Choice: kill her husband with a pair of scissors or he'd kill her baby. She did it. Red Skull then chucked the baby out a window and let his three thugs gang-rape her.

So, as we all can see, Ultimate!Red Skull is a nasty customer, and indeed I completely agree. However, I have a few things I want to bring into question.

Skull was born as the child of Captain America. He was immediately taken by a government research facility where he spent his whole life cooped up in a lab, being put through experiment after experiment and being tested, with no person shown to develop an actual reltaionship with him. When Skull saw the chance, he slaughtered his way out through 200+ people while laughing, then began his reign of terror.

Now, during this reign of terror, many of Skull's above crimes were committed. Killing JFK, forcing the scientist to kill her husband, murdering her baby and letting her be gang-raped....and he was completely unrepentant. Then, after he had gotten his fill? Skull went into retirement.

Until Nick Fury leaked info about the reality-warping Cosmic Cube. Now in his sixties, Skull comes out of retirement and begins a killing spree anew to track down the Cube. Once obtaining the Cube, Skull uses it to force dozens of soldiers to cannibalize themselves, torments the Avengers with it, and giddily proclaims his plans to torture several of them with the Cube.

Skull is beaten, and, as he lays dying in a hospital bed, Fury allows Skull's mother a few moments with her son. We don't see or hear what this conversation was about, however Skull's mother seems content, and we then get this dialogue between Fury and Skull:

Fury: "So what did you and old Mother Goose talk about?"

Skull: "Regrets. On both sides."

Fury: "Hell, what does a bad guy like YOU regret? That you didn't kill more puppies and kittens?"

Skull: "You think this is what I wanted? Lying here with a hole in my chest? Sixty-four and no happy memories? The only thing that lured me out of retirement was the idea of a machine that could change everything. That's all I wanted the Cosmic Cube for. Not to rule the world or any of that crap. I wanted to turn back time and make things different. I wanted my father to come home from the war and marry my mother. I wanted us to be a family. I wanted to have a different life. Be something better... Is that really too much to ask? To be happy for once?"

Skull is then executed by the scientist he had gang raped while Fury says "Happy endings are for chinese massage parlors."

Now, some of this has been brought up, and the people for Keeping Skull say that he was faking just to screw with Fury. I...don't see it. At all.

First up, a few of the arguments....

• If Skull REALLY wanted to use the Cosmic Cube to change the past, why didn't he do that instead of tormenting the Avengers and having those soldiers eat each other?

Because, as Skull himself says? He's practicing. Skull is obviously getting a hang of the Cube as he's fighting, proclaiming "Yes, fight me more, I need PRACTICE!" He later follows this up by proclaiming "I'm bored of you all. I know how to build what I want to build now so you all can go to hell!" This....pretty solidly indicates that Skull is trying to get a grasp on the Cube and doesn't want to jack things up by using it before he can control it.

• Ok, but he's been pure evil his whole life, even before he learned of the Cube.

True, but....consider this. Skull was raised as a lab rat. He had no family, no real friends from what we see, as was treated as a glorified guinea pig. When he finally broke out, of course he's going to have no moral values or reasons to NOT be evil. He was treated as a THING his whole life, so why shouldn't he treat others the same way?

• But he's still a monster. He killed a baby, and committed other atrocities.

Again, I would repeat that Skull had no reason not to indulge in his depravity. He spent the first 17 years of his life cooped up and not being taught anything beyond how to be a weapon, so when he developed sadism, he had no reason not to indulge in it. He wanted to kill a baby? He killed a baby.

• Alright, but then why didn't he ever stop? If he was really the "tortured soul" he puts himself up as, why didn't he ever quit being evil?

He did. Skull retired. He was done. Out of the game. No more crimes. But when he learned of the Cosmic Cube, he came out of retirement SOLELY to get his hands on that. He was in his sixties, and was putting his life on the line, and still came out of retirement JUST for the Cube.

• Right, but he was still a sadist and monster even after coming out of retirement. If he was just trying to change the past, why would he still behave like that?

Couple of reasons, primarily...it didn't matter. As far as Skull was concerned, he could have blown up Germany, and slaughtered every firstborn kid in the world, but it wouldn't have mattered if he got the Cube. If Skull changed the past? None of that would have happened. Skull claims he was going to rewrite reality to insure he had a family and lived a normal life, and if he did that, none of his crimes would have mattered. They would have been erased from existence, so why should he care if he kills another couple dozen people or so?

• Ok then, final one. He could have been lying to Fury. He might have just been trying to screw with him.

Ok, that could work....but, my issue? We SEE Skull's vision of him as a child being happy with his parents. As he explains his "motives" to Fury, we see an image of Skull as a child on his father's shoulders, his mother right beside them, and all three just laughing in an amusement park like a normal family. I don't believe we would have gotten THIS level of detail to Skull's "motive" or "what could have been" if it wasn't meant to be believed.

Here's the panels of Skull's final moments: here◊, here◊ and here◊.

My personal view of Skull is that he was bred as a perfect soldier, with no one ever showing him proper care or love. He went on a rampage and pretty much just gave into his sadism and evil because he had no reason NOT to be pure evil and enjoy it, until he got tired and retired. He threw caution to the wind and got himself killed to come out of retirement solely to find the Cube, and while he continued his sadistic streak, none of it would have mattered because he was going to fix everything. I view Skull as a person who realizes that he pretty much IS a Complete Monster of sorts, and wants to change that because he's miserable and wants a genuinely happy life.

In conclusion, all I ask for is a reevaluation of Skull. I'm about 99% sure at least one or two of my arguments haven't been brought up before, and it's been bugging me for a LONG time. If we could just have a civil discussion on this, I would be greatly appreciative and welcome any arguments against my points.

edited 28th Jan '18 10:50:50 AM by Ravok

Yes to Alfred, Dekkom, Funny Man, Pumpkin, Dolan and Lighty duo. Also the writeup for Doc Ripper from Slashers:

Doctor Ripper is one of the three Slashers featured on the All-American Special and the worst Psycho for Hire the show has to offer. An audience favorite, he makes sure his victims suffer in any way possible before he gives them a brutal and agonizing death, humiliating them or delivering non-lethal wounds to their bodies, just so he can hunt them again later. Doctor Ripper absolutely adores doing his job, having a room filled with photos of his previous victims so he can instigate fear into the hearts of the contestants. His last atrocity before his ultimate demise is to torture Brenda, an aspiring actress and model, by removing the skin from her cheeks (effectively ending her career even if she had won the game) and later slowly decapitating her, all while laughing maniacally, taking the opportunity to lick her head afterwards. Unlike the other Slashers, who are being paid to kill people for the entertainment of millions, Doctor Ripper wants to be there for his own entertainment.

Alright, I will do an effort post now.

What is the work?

Meet The Robinsons is about a boy named Lewis who is taken to the future by another boy named Wilbur Robinson to meet the titular family. The film is lighthearted for the most part with lots of wacky comedy. Even one of the main villains, Bowler Hat Guy is rather incompetent. The other villain is not.

Also, I will just warn you that the time travel logic is very fucked up here, so I will just go in order of how the movie presents it.

Who is she?

DOR-15, or Doris, is a robot that looks like a bowler hat, invented to serve as a "helping hat" for humanity. She did not like that job however, and rebelled, eventually teaming up with Bowler Hat Guy. Though she seems to be just a Hyper-Competent Sidekick, she eventually turns out to be the real mastermind behind the Evil Plan.

What does she do?

She first appears with the Bowler Hat Guy sneaking into the science fair. The two of the discreetly sabatoge Lewis's invention, a memory scanner, causing the scanner to fall apart when activated. Lewis leaves upset, leaving the invention behind, which allows Bowler Hat Guy and Doris to steal the invention.

The two head off to Inventco to present the machine. The only problem is that neither of them know how the machine works, so the whole meeting goes poorly. The two realize that they need Lewis to work the machine, so they track down his orphanage. After Bowler Hat Guy has a bonding moment with Lewis's roommate Goob, the two head to the roof to find Lewis, but Doris finds time travel residue, and she realizes that Wilbur has taken Lewis to the future. So they get into their own time machine to follow him.

The two arrive and land next to the Robinson house. Doris leaves the time machine to sneak into the house. She prevents the Bowler Hat Guy from leaving the time machine, and instead gives him a mini-version of herself to keep himself busy. Doris decides to kill Wilbur by dropping a chandelier on him. But before she can, Bowler Hat Guy unleashes a dinosaur to kidnap Lewis, pissing off Doris.

Later, Wilbur runs away from the Robinson house after Wilbur broke his promise to travel to the past to show him his birth mom. He confronts Bowler Hat Guy and Doris who make the same promise if Lewis shows them how the memory scanner works. So Lewis does so, but Doris ties him up afterwards. Bowler Hat Guy reveals that Wilbur's dad, Cornelius Robinson, is in fact a future version of Lewis, and then reveals himself to Goob, who is out for revenge after losing a baseball game. In the flashbacks, Doris is revealed to have been one of Cornelius's inventions as a helping hat. Doris did not like being used for such tasks, and quickly rebelled. Thus, Cornelius seemingly shut her down. However, Doris survived and escaped to get revenge, meeting up with Bowler Hat Guy and forcing him into cooperation. It is here where it's revealed that Doris is the true mastermind of the plan.

Goob and Doris prepare to leave with the scanner, but Wilbur and Carl, a fully sentient robot invented by Cornelius, rescue both Lewis and the scanner. Though they seem in the clear, Doris claws through Carl's chest and kills him, stealing back the memory scanner. Goob and Doris then travel back to the Inventco meeting, where they successfully impress the board with the scanner. As a result, Wilbur is erased from existence.

As if things couldn't get any worse, Lewis flees back to the Robinson House, where a video plays on a monitor. It turns out that after the successful presentation, Goob proposed mass produced helping hats, which were copies of Doris. Through these hats, Doris attacked and enslaved people all over. Goob protests this in horror, but Doris attacks and kills him.

The video stops and Doris herself confronts Lewis, who reacts in horror that this can't be happening. Then a mind controlled Robinson family, minus Wilbur, Cornelius, and Carl, appear, with Doris stating through Mrs. Robinson that it has already happened. Lewis climbs into his time machine as the family tries to kill him, and successfully repairs it and flies away. As he flies out, the house itself, which has been turned into a giant version of Doris, starts chasing him. Lewis looks over the new future in horror, with everyone enslaved under the hats, turning the once beautiful landscape into an industrial nightmare. As he is cornered by all of the Doris's attacking him Lewis realizes their is only one way to fix this.

Lewis travels back in time to after the board meeting, where Goob and Doris have already finished presenting their invention. Lewis reveals Doris's treachery, and Doris throws Goob to the side and tries to kill Lewis. However, Lewis proclaims that he will never invent Doris, erasing her from existence. Lewis takes Goob into the time machine, and Goob reacts with horror at Doris's future as the original future is restored.

Heinousness?

Yeah, the biggest issue is heinous, especially compared to some other Disney villains. Yeah, the Bad Future is horrific, but it could have been much worse. Of course, she is shown to forcibly latch herself on to people to control them, which is implied to be painful, but that might not be enough. Within her own film she's the most heinous, but I don't know outside of that.

Moral Agency?

Definitely has that. She does everything on her own accord. And it has nothing to do with her goal.

Personality?

Has some. She express obvious irritation at the Bowler Hat Guys shenanigans, and her movements at times show sadism. Her reasoning for enslaving humanity is part revenge and part sadism. So she does have some personality despite not talking.

Redeeming qualities?

No. She was evil from the outset, and Cornelius had every justified reason to shut her down.

Verdict?

I was originally more for it, but as I think about it, I think I have to vote . I will post the effort post anyway just to see what people think, but as I think more about it, I'm not as supportive.

No to Doris and....sadly, put that way, I think I have to lean cut for Ultimate Red Skull

Absolute no to Doris... I've responded to the Red Skull concerns in PM before. I'll read them a little more thoroughly when I get a free chance, but I still lean to "keep" overall because I absolutely cannot buy anything, anything, he says as truly sincere in the end.

For what it's worth, I've got several other arguments on my above post that I didn't bring up in PMs because I hadn't formulated them yet, but take your time and feel free to vote however you want.

Gonna say 'No' to Doris. Just don't think she's heinous enough when all the chips are down.

DOR-15 and Skull

Doris and, although I missed most of the debates on Ultimate!Skull, after a series of very compelling arguments by Ravok to him too, the potentially impaired agency plus potentially wanting a life with his parents is too much for me.

for Lord Pumpkin! (How fitting of a name.) to DOR-15. She doesn't exactly scream CM, even with her heinousness.

Also getting the write-up for Alfred since he's got 7

• From the web-published short story Bring Him Home: Alfred is an 1867 factory owner who utilizes child labor under the harshest condition. The young children are underfed and their fingers are bloodied from working on the machines. All of them are kept in chains and the protagonist, Henry, says that Alfred had hundreds of children kidnapped, including Henry's son, Harry. Henry joins a group of rebels to take them all back. Once Alfred gets word of this, he sends for a sadistic assassin from a group known as the Pinkertons stop them form getting the children. And the Pinkerton is directly responsible for viciously beating a group of the rebels to death with a baseball bat. Once Alfred hears gunshots in the factory when some of the rebels get past the Pinkerton, he hides in behind his desk and immediately tries to surrender out of fear when one of them, Jack, corners him. Unfortunately for him, Jack doesn't care. Alfred was nothing more than a selfish, greedy bastard willing to do anything for money.

Doris. Her Bad Future isn't that bad honestly as it could be worse and the fact she has barely any personality unlike the other A.I. Is a Crapshoot CM's we have doesn't help her chances.

Also Ultimate Red Skull and it eatsme to do that but it does seem like he just wanted to make his family happy. So scumbag but not quite a CM. Though that still hurts to do.

edited 28th Jan '18 11:43:23 AM by miraculous

Doris and Red Skull (keep)

to Doris and cut Ultimate!Red Skull.