Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Noted. If there is anyone in the novel who might be a CM, it's him. But I think the point of the novel is not to portray him that way. He's just a vehicle to expound on how the society of the South would prefer to execute an innocent black man rather than a white man who rapes and beats his daughter.

edited 12th Feb '13 2:08:11 PM by Fighteer

edited 12th Feb '13 1:58:12 PM by SeptimusHeap

Most southern men from that era in Alabama didn't rape their children or try to murder children, so I have no idea what you're saying

Fighteer's other point, on Ewell being said vehicle is a compelling one

@8399: Thanks

Also: Its A Wonderful Life:

• Complete Monster: Mr. Potter. When the defeated George comes begging pathetically for any assistance, Potter tries to have him arrested (on Christmas Eve!) for losing money that Potter himself stole from him. That really takes something special. Other examples include how Potter loudly and obviously yawns when George delivers a speech to the board of the Bailey Building & Loan on what a good man his late father was. The slimeball also tries to close the Building and Loan even though it was still operating.

Heh, no, just, no.

Potter is a corrupt corporate Executive. Arresting him, yawning, trying to close down the bank, no, not even close to this trope, granted I haven't seen the movie, but from what I've read and what this entry says, that doesn't even come close. He's just a ruthless cynical old man. Also Moral Event Horizon needs some changes as well.

But he yawns, he yawns, clear Complete Monster there.

Yes, cut with prejudice. He's a corrupt businessman and huge jerk but doesn't even come close to the requisite heinousness for the trope.

Agree with cutting Potter. Sheesh.

Puella Magi Kazumi Magica has one that needs to be purged. Just need to check here before I kill it.

• Complete Monster: Kazumi Magica does the amazing job of making Kyubey even more of a jackass, even though he only makes a cameo appearance. How is this possible? Well, said cameo has him appear with Jubey, who is either an Incubator or at least connected with them. Jubey is capable of purifying The Corruption from Soul Gems! The implications of this are astounding: Kyubey purposely withheld an easier way of purifying Soul Gems from the anime characters.
  • The reason for this is obviously because (MAJOR SPOILERS FOR MADOKA MAGICA) Kyubey was trying to get the anime characters to become Witches. This also implies that Kazumi and the Pleiades Saints are more useful to Kyubey as magical girls, probably because they wouldn't release that much energy if they became Witches themselves (thanks to their fairly minor wishes). Then there's the Cosmic Retcon at the end of the anime. It's too early to tell how it would affect Kazumi Magica, but one way or another, Kyubey still isn't purifying (or getting someone to purify) Soul Gems for the anime characters...
  • He also has the dubious honor of setting the plot of the series in motion by contracting Airi, who has just had the bombshell that her friend Yuuri contracted to save her from her illness, turned into a witch because of her kindness and killed right before her eyes dropped on her. She's clearly unstable at that point, and makes a wish to become Yuuri and take revenge on the Pleiades, who killed Witch!Yuuri.
    • In Chapter 18, Kanna's flashback reveals that it was Juubey who set the series into motion, hijacking the title of Big Bad back from Kyuubey. How? He revealed to Kanna, Nico's clone, the truth about her existence. He then CONTRACTS with Kanna to allow her to get close to the Pleiades Saints. This is a big deal because Kanna was the true creator of the Evil Nuts that Airi used, and it was believed by the Pleiades Saints that he could never contract after Umika brainwashed them when Michiru turned into a witch.
      • In chapters 19 through 21, Kyubey does it again. How does this happen? It is revealed that Juubey a "Subordinated Incubator" made by Nico to replace the need for Kyubey. In the process, Kyuubey hijacks the story from Juubey a second time by revealing he was the Big Bad all along, and Umika had cast a spell to make everyone think Jubey was the only contracting creature and hide Kyubey.

Even ignoring all the natter about who the real villain is, Kyubey isn't a CM for trying to save the universe, even if it's at the cost of young girls. That and the stuff here that supposedly made him worse here ended up being a lie.

I've been debating with myself on Ewell for a while now, and I'm going to vote... keep. Racism can be written off as standard villainy. As much as I hate to say it, incest/child molestation can be too. But pawning off a horrible crime you've committed onto someone else solely because of his race? That, in my book, takes a "special" kind of person.

Agreeing with Hamburger Time. Unlike the past few discussed examples from literature, there is much more emphasis on Ewell being terrible as an individual because his crimes are entirely separate from the wrongs of the system (unlike, say, O'Brian, who is the system. To put a spin on Fighteer's comment, Ewell isn't anything but a terrible person).

edited 12th Feb '13 3:08:01 PM by Crowley

I mentioned that here. And my opinion still stands, he is unapologetic in all of his actions against girls and the earth, but he does so for the good Universe, and trying to save it from entropy, cut it.

edited 12th Feb '13 3:13:40 PM by DrPsyche

Adding to that, Ewell's the type of guy who knows the system's broken, and exploits that fact to suit himself.

Yeah, Kyubey is a bastard, though he's more of a very dark anti-hero than a monster.

I agree with the removal of O'Brien but I'd say keep Bob Ewell. They make for a good case comparison in that they are both meant to represent corrupt systems, but the difference is that in 1984, every member of the Party is implied to be as sociopathic as O'Brien. O'Brien is meant to show that society as a whole has become so evil that people we would normally consider Complete Monsters are commonplace. In 1984 there is no worst of society, since all of society is equally bad.

In To Kill A Mocking Bird society is still moral enough to loathe its worst components, in this case Bob Ewell, but still flawed enough that they can be manipulated by the worst among them into acting just as badly. While the town and Ewell have racism in common, its people still have enough moral standards that they hate Ewell for his other deeds. The town may have convicted Tom for a deed they have good reason to believe he could not have committed, but they at least have the possible excuse of prejudice clouding their judgment. While the town members could have convinced themselves that Tom did the crime despite Atticus's arguments, Ewell knows for a fact that Tom didn't do the crime he’s accused him of, and tries to convict him anyway. Racism isn't what makes Ewell a monster; he's a monster because he's framed an innocent man for no good reason, raped and abused his own daughter, and attempted to murder two small children to spite their father.

edited 12th Feb '13 3:34:46 PM by OccasionalExister

I agree with this. Voting no on Bob Ewell.

I find the arguments from Exister and HT have swayed me more. Vote to keep Bob Ewell

The thing is, while the novel is primarily an indictment of the system, it also addresses how evil people can use such a flawed system that's biased in their favor to basically become untouchable by the law, and in this role we have Ewell. The way I see it, the system didn't make Ewell the way he is, he makes the system worse than it already is.

Agree with cutting Kyubey. As for Potter, whoever put him up needs to be beaten with a Christmas tree. I mean, he's a CM because he yawns? Sheesh.

Will have to think more about Bob Ewell, looking at the arguments. Still lean towards cutting though.

Did we ever reach a consensus on Zofis from Zatch Bell? I realize the series is pretty obscure, but you can read up on him here.

Should we cut Mr. Big (Moonwalker)? He's listed without context, and as I recall, he's just a drug runner. A rather ambitious and well-funded one, granted, but still. A drug runner.

Vote to keep Bob Ewell.

edited 12th Feb '13 6:40:58 PM by VeryMelon

@ Deshar and Hodor: I don't quite think you two grasp the gravity of that Yawn, the sheer evil conveyed by it. Also, thanks to you guys and Fighteer for your votes, That makes four against, I'll take 2 more, and then cut him.

Like I said, If you want to judge Ewell, note that his crimes would be framing an innocent man, and attempting to kill the children. Raping his daughter is fridge Horror, as the book's line is vague, and the younger children is a guess. Beating his daughter is more explicit, as Atticus all but points it out, by comparing the reports of damage to what one with a left hand swing could do (Ewell is left handed); still, that's also offscreen.

edited 12th Feb '13 7:31:43 PM by DrPsyche

I'm not sure how I stand about Ewell. He's definitely pretty heinous, and isn't an obviously bad example. If he counts, he would be a relatively rare instance of a Complete Monster who is a petty thug as opposed to the more common variety of serial killers, supervillains and the like.

I would probably tend to think that he's more along the lines of a total scumbag who crossed the Moral Event Horizon than a Complete Monster.

It's middle-of-nowhere Mississippi. Petty thug is probably the height of villainy there.

Kyubey in Puella Magi Kazumi Magica has been cut.

Damn, I'm sick for a few days and then get this huge backlog going every which way...

(WARNING: MASSIVE POST AHEAD)

Twin Peaks entries: Searched for the BOB discussion through LOTS of old thread pages w/search function, found a few mostly-isolated posts with no clear consensus. Can somebody help me find it, or at least explain in a PM how it went (suspect the vote was to cut from reactions)?

Lezard Valeth: Bit on the fence given the conflicting arguments. Then again, I'm one of those guys who feel love, if it makes you do things heinous enough, shouldn't be a disqualifier (I disagree that a love that pushes someone to such terrible extremes is "humanizing"). There's a good point raised about the fact that while he says (and probably honestly thinks) it's love, it may just be creepy obsession; and the way he's described, he may not attempt the sexual assault variant of rape, but what's described looks like tricking/mind-screwing Lenneth (using supernatural means to boot) into getting with him, which is also a form of rape, if a less blatant one.

Griffith (again; in response to 32Footsteps): I agree with you on that point (as well as the particular post by Lightysnake you were responding to), though what I'm saying is that he wasn't a CM who thought so little of his followers and companions before the Eclipse- he voluntarily discarded that when he activated the Egg of the King, though. Non-sociopaths in Real Life have abandonned any concerns for/betrayed the trust of those they cared about with few or no regrets for various incentives numerous times, even if their feelings were genuine before. Personally, I think that makes him worse than if he was always totally uncaring about everyone else (like, say, Kiriyama from Battle Royale).

Still maintain my keep vote for Mighty Max's Dr. MacTaggart; I'd need to re-watch the ep to expand the write-up, though.

The Jungle: Connor seems definitely a total asshole deserving of at least the beatdown he got, but I concur he's not above and beyond enough to count-plus seems less a character (even a flat one) than a symptom. And cut the group of course.

Drizz't examples: Agree with cutting Errtu the way he's phrased and with keeping Mother Malice if she's as batshit beyond even drow standards as she seems.

The Joker Blogs Joker: More detail on his kills, please. Could be a keep.

O'Connor from 1984: Yeah, probably more of a symptom as well. Neutral, but won't mind cut.

Fairly Odd Parents live-action example: Kill It with Fire!

To Kill A Mockingbird's Bob Ewell: The abuse of his daughter is so heavily implied as to be blatantly self-evident (even discounting the rape), and with his attempted murder of two children as well as the framing of someone he knows is innocent for his own crimes is pretty far beyond the average "southern racist asshole" stereotype. His racism appears to me as some steps above in virulence also; seems to me he and Simon Legree would get along mightily. Also, what Hamburger Time and Occasional Exister said. Keep.

The Mayor from Rango: He may be inspired by Noah Cross, but is less evil by at least an order of magnitude. Cut.

Mr. Potter, Its A Wonderful Life: Yeeaaahhhh ...no. Total jerk, but not heinous enough. Cut.

Kyubey from Puella Magi Kazumi Magica: Whoa, what a mess of an entry. Cut, especially since Incubators operate purely on Blue-and-Orange Morality so alien (BIG SPOILERS) they have zero understanding of human emotions beyond their use as a power source, and were completely blindsided by Madoka's wish at the end of Puella Magi Madoka Magica.

Zofis from Zatch Bell: What, him again? Gonna reiterate my keep vote then. Bastard's likely the worst Mind Rapist I've yet seen in a shonen.

Mr. Big from Moonwalker: Yeah, I think we can safely cut him.

edited 12th Feb '13 8:04:05 PM by Paireon