During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
We still HAVE the Human Centipede entry FWIW.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Nobu. Seems bad enough.
We discussed Vukmir when the Torture Porn rule was implemented, and decided that the story has enough plot for him to count.
edited 1st Apr '16 10:02:26 AM by DemonDuckofDoom
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Okay. So Vukmir's is just a really, really vile villain in a dark movie that does have a plot to it?
Again, I've seen the first Human Centipede, and while I'm no fan of it, I will admit that it does have some form of plot to it. The second and third films were just shock value; at least the first movie focused more on the villain and how he and his "pet" were progressing after the "transformation." I don't even recall the first movie showing the villain making the "centipede" onscreen (although he does fully explain it). And therein lies the problem: I think Tom Six wouldn't have gotten so much flak if he at least tried on the second and third films as opposed to giving up and saying "Well, here's people shitting into other people's mouths and other gross shit."
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Oh yeah. Forgot about that. The thing is though, if he treated the dog centipede the way he treated the human centipede, then no. It's not redeeming.
edited 1st Apr '16 10:11:43 AM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
About Heiter, there's something that bothers me: in the movie's beginning he holds a picture of his late dog-centipede and appears to cry as he watches the picture. In his garden there's also a tombstone wich says "To my beloved dog-centipede." I don't know if it's a redeeming trait, however, because when he talks to his prisoners about how the dog-centipede died he dosen't sound sad at all. Tears of fanaticism, perhaps ?
edited 2nd Apr '16 1:00:07 AM by MovieFan2000
RIP Toriyama
I don't understand how a sicko manipulating a man into committing atrocities, then the man rewatching said atrocities on tape, before killing the sicko, then committing a murder-suicide on his wife, son (Who he was tricked into raping) and himself, before having their bodies defiled, isn't considered shameless Gorn and just shovk value. Looking through (What there is of) the trope page, the Wikipedia page, and reviews, I see absolutely ZERO plot beyond "Psycho commits gruesome acts that shock and repulse an innocent man".
I mean, let's think about this: It's trope page is practically nonexistant. It's banned in countries for arguable child pornography. This is a trashy, disgusting film made for nothing but shock valkue that quite frankly embarasses me as a movie-goer, and it needs to be acknowledged as such. It's "Evil man does evil things to a Nice Guy" the movie. I vote 'cut' and my mind will not be changed.
edited 1st Apr '16 10:18:12 AM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
From what I understand of the, umm, plot, Vukmir is indeed a clear villain. The main character is a sympathetic ex-porn star who gets back into the business when his family falls on hard times; Vukmir is his director and tempts him into increasingly depraved acts for higher paychecks. So, as odd as it sounds, it's not a movie where everyone is uber-depraved. It is an uber-depraved movie though. Some countries have actually banned it as child pornography. The director claims it's a metaphor for The Yugoslav Wars or something but I suspect that's a Parody Retcon.
edited 1st Apr '16 10:14:55 AM by HamburgerTime
I'd like to propose Swiper from Dora the Explorer. He mercilessly stalks the main character and has driven her to insanity such that she thinks she has a talking backpack. All she can do is scream "swiper no swiping" to someone who isn't there. It's really quite tragic. Honestly though I'm leaning towards ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
, since I don't think he's ever murdered anybody.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@HamburgerTime: Welp, shit. Maybe he does qualify? .........Still though, all the shit going on in this film just screams "shock value." Curious, but have you watched the movie yourself?
@Ravok: I understand why you have issues with this movie, but keep in mind, you yourself have brought up quite a few nasty characters. I recall one guy who was a pedophile who ran a child prostitution ring (or something along those lines). I don't fully remember the details; all I remember is that this guy was so disgusting, that everyone (except me and HamburgerTime) damn near had a panic attack after reading the effortpost on him. But the book he was from was not shameless shock value. It was merely a book that had a truly vile villain in it.
All I'm trying to understand is whether or not A Serbian Film is a tasteless Torture Porn film, or if the film is filled with shock value because the villain in it is incredibly vile. If we all agree that this is just typical shock value bullshit, I'm fine with cutting Vukmir. But if this movie is what HamburgerTime says it is, he might have to stay.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
I've just read a summary, not going near the actual thing. And don't get me wrong, it's schlock. Like I said, there are countries where it's flat-out illegal to own. But it's schlock that does have a plot and genuinely good people in it.
RIP Toriyama
While I have brought up many nasty villains, I also made explicitly clear that there were other things happening in the story besides "Villain being evil."
Said novel with the pedophile ring also has a family struggling with divorce and slowly reassembling for the sake of their son.
The novel with the child eater also had it's hero, a detective, forming relationships with other officers and detectives.
The novel with the Serial Rapist had it's lead dealing with a budding romance while also working through PTSD.
This....."film"? Out of literally everything I have read about it, there's virtually no plot beyond "Nice guy gets taken advantage of by a prick and gets horrified by him." If someone can prove that there is something in the way of plot besides that, then I'll stop being so adamantly against it. But until then, I retain my 'cut' vote.
edited 1st Apr '16 10:42:42 AM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
If A Serbian Film was on any streaming services I was aware of, I'd give it a watch. I have a very high tolerance for the fucked-up (for context, I consider Cannibal Holocaust and Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer to both be excellent films)., but there are very few films I'm willing to pay for without watching them first.
edited 1st Apr '16 10:49:16 AM by DemonDuckofDoom
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
HOLY SHIT!
Okay, so this giant organ in my skull actually turned the fuck on and stopped wondering who Negan is gonna kill this Sunday.
A while back, Lightysnake brought up Beasts of No Nation (incredibly film BTW. Thank you, Netflix). The main villain is a horrible monster who leads child soldiers, corrupts them, gets one of his own men killed, cares little about his soldiers, and he rapes the lead protagonist, who is no older than ten. But this film isn't just "shock value." There's a point to it. This film is disturbing, yes, but after it ended, it left me reflecting. It didn't leave me going, "Wow. That was disgusting, repetitive bullshit that was thrown in my face for no reason." That's a legitimate film. A Serbian Film clearly isn't.
I'm calling it.
Who's up for cutting Vukmir? If anyone else has objections, please say them now.
edited 1st Apr '16 10:54:22 AM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
To be fair though, there's a WIDE canyon between Beasts Of No Nation and even non-Torture Porn.
Cut Vukmir.
Re Daredevil Season 2: No to Nobu for reasons already listed. He isn't heinous enough, he showed some Worthy Opponent respect to Daredevil, he's a bigwig in the organization but we don't know how high up he is exactly, etc. He's just kind of there in season two to act as The Face of his organization since it's harder to ascribe animosity to a large group of mostly anonymous ninja than it is to a character the audience is already familiar with.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I oppose cutting Vukmir. BTW, DDD, it can be found here or here.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@ACW: I know that. But even horror films that have lots of Gorn or disgusting/bizarre/bloody horror aspects in them are capable of having a decent plot with a CM to boot. Look at the classic Halloween and A Nightmare on Elm Street franchises.
And, again, as me and Ravok pointed out, if A Serbian Film was a fanfic, something tells me everyone in this forum would be ranting for days and days and days for even bringing the fanfic up to begin with.
......I despise you for making me laugh when I'm having a serious conversation. Damn you. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
edited 1st Apr '16 11:05:16 AM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well if your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle 
.
RIP Toriyama
Ugh. Okay, so I grazed through the film, and, along with stuff that's gonna keep me up at night for the next few days, I saw nothing that resembled a solid plot beyond Vukmir manipulating the MC into a horrific porn production.
Now, our MC DOES have a few interactions with his wife and son, but it's barely anything beyond him whining he's out of money, the parents having sex, and the parents trying to explain to their child why he just witnessed his father having sex with a woman in a porn film starring his father the boy found. Yeah. It's THAT kind of movie.
So, I say 'Cut'.
edited 1st Apr '16 11:09:33 AM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
to The Crooked Man, and the Hobgoblin.
for Nobu but for Crooked Man and Hobgoblin.
Lizzid people!
Hobgoblin.
Wild Child
This is probably because I haven't watched the movie, but I'm not really for Vukmir being cut, even if it is a bad movie.
Why so serious?
I'm all for cutting Vukmir, and on Torture Porn I'm still very much for cutting Heiter as well, if just because the latter's universe is just that screwed up.
edited 1st Apr '16 12:36:03 PM by Scraggle
The mere fact that A Serbian Film ends with a camer crew alking in on a dead father, mother, and son, at which point one of them begins undoing his pants while another says "Start with the little one" makes me wonder just HOW THE EVERLOVING CRAP this isn't consider Gorn, Torture Porn, and just too stupid to even deserve to be mentioned in any even partially sophisticated thread.
I vote 'Cut' for the same reasons as Human Centipede-type stuff. If it wasn't a feature film, we'd have destroyed the person who proposed him, moved on, and never spoken about it again.
edited 1st Apr '16 10:00:50 AM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.