During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
Now that we’ve moved on, a nice ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for Blair and Jimmy
A nice swimmer
Again, very much apologies if i came across as someone who was insulting people for having bad arguments as well, and that it infuriated some of you. I thought that since some people were seeing my point i was trying to add up for these arguments, but i ended up infurating you all.
I guess to Blair and Jimmy.
Edited by TheWrongOne41 on Sep 4th 2022 at 9:42:18 AM
Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice.
Just keep it in mind for the future phrasing is important, and we can all just let it be bygones.
RIP Toriyama
All is good, people misunderstood my statement and I suppose I took for granted that it would be simpler to understand, all I meant in my initial post was that Kira and Angelo literally sharing a Part, a city, a niche, and the heroes against them made them more easy to compare immediately VS J. Geil being in a different setting with different activities going on in his villainy, I wasn't implying the arguments about Angelo needed to be disregarded or that the heinous standard was different and I'm sorry if it came off that way to some.
It was an idle thought I put to page and it apparently was easily misinterpreted by some. All is well now though so long as phrasing of things like "the heinous standard doesn't work that way" are worked on, and the initial comparison to Angelo as a cut argument was fine to make, but I ultimately have laid out why I feel J. Geil still counts and we'll let it lie wherever it falls, no ultimate harm done here.
Edited by Ravok on Sep 4th 2022 at 9:52:16 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Hey, first time posting here. I saw that an entry for Narinder from Cult of the Lamb was approved, and I'd like to contest it, as I feel like his dialog if he's spared and made a follower wasn't given enough consideration and his murder of his siblings is given undue weight considering how monstrous they themselves are. Is it alright if I make a post laying out my argument for why he doesn't qualify?
The wifi here sucks
I'd be interested in hearing your argument.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Professor Gigachad
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
He was recently approved you can take a look at the EP here.
I can't speak much about the potential mitigating factor without further explanation, but one thing I will point out is killing someone evil can still be considered heinous if they aren't like a vigilante killing them to prevent them from doing something evil and their motive for killing them is something like a You Have Failed Me or out of spite. And either way just looking at his writeup he seems more than heinous enough even without that, so I doubt that would be an issue.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Sep 4th 2022 at 10:45:15 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Cool, thanks for hearing me out.
Fratricide (and other acts of evil)
The entry for him on the game's YMMV page and the original EP places a lot of emphasis on him setting the Lamb out to kill his siblings and how badly he injured them before he was sealed away. However, his siblings are pretty damn evil themselves:
- a number of NPCs state that they rule their domains through fear and are worshiped in hopes of staving off their wrath
- they sacrifice their own followers by the dozen to enhance their own strength
- they transform yet other followers into grotesque abominations to fight the Lamb in their stead
- at the start of the game, they commit wholesale genocide against sheep (leaving the Lamb as the Sole Survivor of their people)
Given all that, I don't think it can be said that he's that more evil than them. Say what you will about Narinder, but he never committed (or attempted) genocide.
The only other direct act of evil he commits (I'm not counting him shit-talking Ratau and telling the Lamb to be cruel- that's just being a dick, not actually being evil) is requiring the Lamb to sacrifice a follower to him, which I think has to be done in order to advance the plot. And yep, that's pretty evil... but we see his siblings doing the same thing in the cut-scenes before battling them. That's apparently just how gods are in the setting: they all treat their followers as disposable tools; he's just not special in terms of heinousness there.
Follower dialog
If he's made a follower, he gives the player a series of quests that give unique dialog if completed. He starts out openly bitter and disdainful of both the Lamb and his siblings, but each quest has him become more and more melancholic as he reminisces about his siblings, with the game clearly intending the player to feel a sense of pathos. The quest series ends with him asking to experience mortal life by going on an adventure of his own, with him thanking the Lamb seemingly sincerely if that request is granted.
This was argued that this softening might have been due to brainwashing via his initial indoctrination into the Lamb's cult, but given that he initially displays no sign of affection for the Lamb until doing his quests even if made a follower (he'll still give you angry/bitter dialog if you don't), I don't believe this is the case.
Summary
Given that the worst of his crimes are committed against fellow evil deities, who in turn committed an act of evil on a scale that he never did and his other crimes aren't any worse than those committed by those same deities, I argue he fails the heinousness standard. And as the game intends for you feel a sense of pathos for him and he grows to regard you fondly, I don't think he can be called a complete monster.
Edited by Orbiting on Sep 4th 2022 at 2:05:40 PM
Well if Esther/leena backstory about her being molest by her father becomes canon then she's cut from being pure evil
Wild Child
Esther was already removed.
Professor Gigachad
Hmm, While him killing the siblings probably wouldn't be disqualifying on its own the fact that they are just as awful as him that is concerning in terms of him standing out in terms of heinousness. I am mostly just wondering how much of this is shown onscreen, as if it's not that doesn't affect the standard. When it comes to the potential mitigating factor, I honestly don't know what to think that seems weird.
A bit late to the party she was already removed.
Best Smile
Jan, Lloyd and Fred, Hornet, Ridley, Marcus, Omega Zero, Blair and Jimmy.
Cut Geil.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Arisa.
Ridley, Marcus, Omega, Jimmy and Blair
Keep Radiance and Geil
Gonna wait for more votes on Narinder
How's this quote?
- The siblings sacrificing their followers in order to enhance their strength before fighting the Lamb is shown on-screen
- Only one of the siblings (Leshy) is shown on-screen doing the full process of transforming a follower into a monster (mostly because it's a somewhat lengthy cutscene that the creators probably didn't want to have the player sit through for every area's miniboss). The rest of the transformations happen off-screen and you only see the monsters post-transformation + them transforming back once defeated
- We don't see the genocide of the rest of the sheep directly, just the siblings doing Evil Gloating right before trying to kill the Lamb at the start of the game, bragging that with the Lamb's death, they will have finally killed every sheep in existence
Their treatment of the people who live in the areas they control is told only through dialog, though we do see ruined villages and survivors morning those who suffered the siblings' wrath + groups of their followers doing the same things Narinder commands the Lamb to do (many of your followers are recruited either from those ruined villages or rescuing those about to be sacrificed to the siblings).
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Yep, that's accurate to what is said in-game.
Edited by Orbiting on Sep 4th 2022 at 2:46:09 PM
I looked up this out of curiosity and I'm putting some faith in the Cult of the Lamb wiki here, so I hope these are accurate to what is actually in the game. There are two follower missions you can do for Narinder with unique dialogue and a couple are below that can be considered potentially disqualifying to his CM status.
The dialogue is from here: https://cult-of-the-lamb.fandom.com/wiki/The_One_Who_Waits#As_a_follower
Task: Collect Spider Silk from Silk Cradle. Request: "...did Shamura weep, when you killed them? Did they know it was their end? Once, they were the brightest of us, their mind gracious and strong like the spider's silk that encased their home. It reminds me of them..." Quest Complete: ...... (says nothing)
This seems to imply Narinder did indeed care for that particular sibling. More damning is this below.
Task: Send Narinder on a mission. Request: "Lamb. Mortal life is so... fragile. So fleeting. So long did I stand at the gates between this life and the next, trapped at the nexus of what was and what wasn't." Quest Complete: "...my thanks, Lamb"
This seems to be Narinder genuinely thanking the lamb for letting him go out on a mission.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Professor Gigachad
Alright hearing the arguments unless I get a really convincing counterargument I am saying Cut Narinder.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
The wifi here sucks
With that dialogue I'm leaning cut on Narinder unless a good argument is brought up in his favor.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Goku Black
Blair and Jimmy
Keep J Geil.
Cut Narinder.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Omega and Lighty's duo.
- "Cannon Ball": Omega is portrayed as an openly malevolent Reploid gleefully relishing the possibility of bloodshed. Believing peace to be fragile and only held up by those who desire war, Omega mocks Zero's desire to protect a world deemed to be a "broken husk". Declaring himself to be Dr. Weil's perfect weapon, Omega seeks to bring about the apocalypse and kill all he sees.
Omega, Blair and Jimmy. Keep Geil, cut Narinder.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Jimmy & Blair, Eli quote
Cut Narinder
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Messenger from another dimension.
Yes to Blair and Jimmy.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
So, just stopping in to announce today marks my 27th birthday.
Unfortunately, I have nothing new to the thread; I was planning on bringing up a villain from an Godzilla script, but while they sounded bad on paper, when I read the script there they don't quite meet the standard for human villains. There's also a few horror candidates I'm considering...but I decided to save them till October.
Also - while I'm a day early - I'm still yet to catch up to Saints Row (2022), so it'll be a while before I have any potential EP's ready then.
Besides all that...I've been buried in fanfiction lately - be it reading fics; writing and updating a lot of my own; or even writing about my shelved fics on Tumblr. So I've been pretty fic distracted for a few weeks now.
If you're curious for details on some of what I'm working on, feel free to PM.
Blair and Jimmy.
Keep J Geil. Cut Narrinder.
Happy Birthday Beast.
Ok so there is a candidate that can possibly be cut. Heinrich Himmler (yes, that's crazy i know) from the Man in the High Castle.
I looked to see discussions about him, and the only one i found was his EP which covered the events until the end of season 3. He never was discussed (or i didn't find any discussion,and trust me i searched well) after the season 4 and i think i have to bring a issue with him.
First a point that i think need to be brought : In season 4, it's shown that he has a wife and he mentions he has daughters. While he and his wife seem to get along, we don't have enough details to know if he really cares for her or not. And nothing is told about his two daughters. That's just an info and not why i decided to do this removal.
The reason i make the removal is because of what happened before Heinrich's death. When he meet John Smith for the last time, he says he did consider him as a son and was dissapointed when John didn't do anything to avenge him when he was shot. Heinrich clearly tells that if somes people did the thing to John, he would have tracked them down and killed them. I think this sentence shows that Heinrich cared for John (when he though John was loyal). And while he did threaten John's family and seemingly subverted his care for John (he dies before he can do anything), it's only because John betrayed him despite Heinrich trusting him. But that still shows that Himmler is capable of caring.
Here's a youtube video of the event so that you could have your opinion about it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkrTX6UCuKQ
I think this is enough to cut him, but let's see what you have to say.
Edited by Hayuki107 on Sep 5th 2022 at 1:41:01 PM
I'm sorry if my previous post came off as rude. I guess I'm confused why Geil and Angelo being in different parts was mentioned in the first place if we're still comparing them. Like I don't think we'd consider Kira bad enough if he was in a different part from Angelo because its still all the same universe.
On a different note, yes to Jimmy Latzo and Blair Mayonaise.
Edited by papyru30 on Sep 4th 2022 at 10:40:49 AM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon