During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Otis. Abstain on Waingro.
Feels good, don't it?
Professor Gigachad
Also when it comes to the Mazinger images I prefer the first one.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
RIP Toriyama
The first Mazinger image is good!
I think the only leg Waingro might have to stand on is he's a shitkicking nobody loner who kills women on his own time and weasels his way into kicking off a brutal firefight and the gunning down of 3 security guards...buuuut the inherent issue is that he has no "niche" to occupy. Wardell is to Waingro what Frieza is to Nappa.
- Waingro's a Serial Killer? Wardell is a serial torturer-murderer in the prequel section who tortured and killed at least 3 people prior to the book, then does it to multiple more. Wardell has cranked it Up To Eleven by the sequel section by turning his pattern into an entire business subsection so well known and feared among the prostitution underworld that people have an actual specific word they use for Wardell's nastiness in the form of "regulating" women.
- Waingro murders underage prostitutes? Wardell introduces himself to the story trying to rape a 14 year old, forces a hesitant member of his gang to do it instead, then later becomes a major component in the trafficking of dozens, plus torturer-murderer of, underage girls.
- Waingro rapes and kills Trejo's wife then leaves him to die slowly for "personal" edge? Wardell tortures Aaron and Tomás to death in brutal ways before mortally wounding Elisa in front of Neil for no fucking reason at all, then later tries to rape and kill Elisa's daughter Gabriela for lulz.
- Waingro helps Van Zant get Neil's gang backed into a corner and initiate a firefight that gets civilians and cops killed? Wardell and his thugs do the exact same near the climax of the novel, with Wardell haphazardly murdering several civilians just for being in his way and at one point bluntly trying to gun down an entire car of screaming innocents at point blank range.
Wardell is just...plainly one of the more wicked crime thriller-style baddies you can get, and Waingro looks pathetic in rapsheet comparison. The only, only leg Waingro has to stand on is that Wardell in the prequel does have a gang backing his plays, then in the sequel has stolen millions to fund his trafficking motels, but idk, at a certain point of the serial torture-rape-murder, Wardell's personal rapsheet without the backup of his goons becomes really hard to compare to Waingro.
Edited by Ravok on Aug 26th 2022 at 9:43:26 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Furin and Wardell.
The Emperor of Evil!
to Furin and Otis.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'm officially abstaining on Waingro, but it seems like a case where even lack of resources may not be enough.
(P.S. Ravok, read that work yet that may have an MB?)
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Professor Gigachad
I'm saying Cut to Waingro. Like he just seems so thoroughly outclassed to the point where I am not sure the minuscule difference in resources is enough to make up for that, especially since you say he is doing worse even without the backing of his gang.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Barb / Temporary Kylo
I'll say yes to Wardell, but personally Keep to Waingro, I do not think he should be cut because of a book that came out decades after the actual film, especially when it is not even in the same medium.
Edited by Snoketrope on Aug 26th 2022 at 10:04:21 AM
The First man
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
See, my issue with that is...we INCLUDE characters because of actions decades after their first appearance (or at least add said crimes to the writeups; hello Palpatine and Tarkin).
The fact this is the same author is pertinent too IMO.
Edited by ACW on Aug 26th 2022 at 1:04:35 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Professor Gigachad
But like I seriously need to ask why that should matter. The work is still definitely canon to the film, the biggest one for me though is that the director of the first film is also directly involved in the creation of this book. Works sometimes take a long time to come out. And yeah we have on multiple case both included actions for characters with stuff decades later and cut characters for that reason.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Star Wars is an ongoing franchise that was pumping out content for years with numerous books, comics and such forming a full EU. This is a book written for a standalone film from years ago, this feels like more of a Fargo case then the actual Fargo case.
The First man
Professor Gigachad
Maybe I could see that case if it wasn't that the director of the film was also involved with this book, not like incidentally but in the way that he played a major role in actually writing it.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Aug 26th 2022 at 10:09:53 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
RIP Toriyama
The biggest difference between this and the Fargo case is that the Coens did not personally construct and write the series; that was Noah Hawley, and the connections to the movie are very light across the 4 seasons thus far. This book is an explicit sequel to the OG film written by Mann himself, with Mann having flat-out said he's intending to adapt the novel to film if he gets the chance.
If we want to say Waingro squeezes by as a lowly creepazoid shithead who isn't even the main antagonist of his movie compared to Wardell being the Big Bad of the novel, that's one thing I'm fine with. But I earnestly don't believe the case of "it's a book that came out decades after the movie" holds up when it's written by Mann himself as a direct prequel-sequel.
Edited by Ravok on Aug 26th 2022 at 10:13:05 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Goku Black
Alright I'll now flip to cutting Wangiro.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Barb / Temporary Kylo
I guess personally I simply disagree, I would feel different if it was even like, live action personally, but I can completely understand the logic.
The First man
Professor Gigachad
Also does anyone have an opinion on this quote
I am not the biggest fan but if we can't find any other options I guess it works.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Quote works if we can't find anything else.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yes to Wardell, cut Waingro... I don't like the idea of keeping a small potatoes version of a bigger villain. We like niches and uniqueness for such baddies and Rav has done a stellar job showing how Waingro doesn't occupy any.
Well, we’ll always have the Xander Berkeley Waingro from Mann’s Heat TV movie.
Part of me remains uncomfy with cutting him admittedly but I’m not voting one way or the other
From what I was noting while I was skimming whether or not to cut Waingro, even if the argument to keep him for operating on a lower scale is flimsy, it's still there. I'm not qualified or knowledgable to have a side or horse in this race though—I only skimmed to avoid spoiling anything major. If you keep him, great and if you cut him, that's shame, but it's the decision that was ultimately made.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I thought this WAS the Xander Berkeley version, but my mistake. Either way, whatever's decided by the thread at the end of the day is decided.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 26th 2022 at 10:33:16 AM
Cut waingro
to the Shredder's Armor, the Great General of Darkness, Dr. Decyst, D, Sgt. Nikolai Furin/the Fury of Russia, Otis Lloyd Wardell, and the first Mazinger Z image.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to the second Mazinger Z images (Unfortunately, not heinous enough). Cut Waingro.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Alright, seems like Fury has enough votes. I'll write him up for this week's batch, and leave a note on the Reilly page where he can be found (since it's not connected to the others).
Also, I'm calling any potential Cobalt Blue sequels.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Showtime!
Let me think about Waingro