During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
That's fair. Though I'm wondering if we shouldn't pothole the characters to the ones they're expies of.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
We never do that with CMs that are expies of other characters, so I do not see the need.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
- Consul D was an exceptionally sadistic Agnian soldier named Blackblaze Dirk before he became Moebius, a complete lunatic who would go about lopping the heads off everyone he encountered with a pair of self-made claws. As a Consul, D is a savage Hero Killer responsible for the murder of numerous named heroes in the story and the massacre of entire Colonies, such as Colony 18, where one of his casualties was one of Eunie’s past selves. Close to his death, D is revealed to keep a gigantic collection of severed heads, each from a child soldier he’s slaughtered, whether they fought or begged or were on his own side, as he admits all that he cares about is the “superlative feeling” of murdering the innocent over and over in a Forever War he knows is bogus.
- Consul X, one of the original Moebius selected by Z, meets the heroes in the midst of massacring her own Colony after it goes Gold, gleefully slaughtering dozens of her own loyal soldiers all for having fought for a goal she knew would result in their demise the entire time. When the heroes confront her later on, she’s playing the Devil on the shoulder of the traitor Shania, encouraging her to betray the heroes and embrace her worst traits. When Shania fails her, X decides to annihilate the City, a refuge for thousands of civilians who have freed themselves from the Forever War and found normal lives for themselves, all because she wants a spiteful “last laugh.”
- Marvel Boy & Original Sin: Dr. Midas is a depraved mad scientist and multitrillionaire who founded the Midas Foundation as a way to capture, vivisect, and sell innumerable alien beings, which almost happens to poor Noh-Varr after Midas kills his crew. Ever the power-craving psychopath, Midas transforms himself into "Cosmic Man" after bathing in Reed Richards' cosmic radiation chamber, slaughtering all of his men and declaring he'll rape his way through "world after world after world" upon declaring all life but himself obsolete. His family situation is even worse; experimenting on his own wife until she was a hotbed of toxins, Midas literally ripped their daughter from her womb, named the child after a torture device, and abused her into a psychotic assassin for his own benefit, trying to kill her later when she reneges against his treatment. He later kills a boat full of people in Original Sin, transforming its horrified captain into literal gold statue after having promised the man a reward "in gold" for his services.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
The tree so far:
- Xenoblade Chronicles 3: While "Z" has agency issues, several of his subordinates, known as "Consuls" in public and "Moebius" in private, have no such concerns:
- Consul D was an exceptionally sadistic Agnian soldier named Blackblaze Dirk before he became a Moebius, a complete lunatic who would go about lopping the heads off everyone he encountered with a pair of self-made claws. As a Consul, D is a savage Hero Killer responsible for the murder of numerous named heroes in the story and the massacre of entire Colonies, such as Colony 18, where one of his casualties was one of Eunie's past selves. Close to his death, D is revealed to keep a gigantic collection of severed heads, each from a child soldier he's slaughtered, whether they fought or begged or were on his own side, as he admits all that he cares about is the "superlative feeling" of murdering the innocent over and over in a Forever War he knows is bogus.
- F (Ravok)
- Consul X, one of the original Moebius selected by Z, meets the heroes in the midst of massacring her own Colony after it goes Gold, gleefully slaughtering dozens of her own loyal soldiers all for having fought for a goal she knew would result in their demise the entire time. When the heroes confront her later on, she's playing the Devil on the shoulder of the traitor Shania, encouraging her to betray the heroes and embrace her worst traits. When Shania fails her, X decides to annihilate the City, a refuge for thousands of civilians who have freed themselves from the Forever War and found normal lives for themselves, all because she wants a spiteful "last laugh".
- Y (Ravok)
Ultimate Moral Compass
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Mom
So, I've found some unproduced Daredevil scripts that might be worth a proposal or three.
What’s the Work?
Daredevil: The Man Without Fear is an unproduced script written by Christopher Columbus and Carlo Carlei from 1996. Intended for Columbia Pictures, the script was shelved and the rights for Daredevil were handed over to Fox, who would make the 2003 movie.
The script involves Matt Murdock, blind lawyer by day, masked vigilante by night, as he sets out to honor his deceased father and clean up the streets of Hell’s Kitchen. Along the way, Daredevil encounters Elektra Natchios, and the evil assassin Bullseye, who’s working for the dreaded Kingpin of Crime in whatever evil scheme he’s cooking up.
I have two potentials, so let’s start with our biggest candidate.
Who is He?
The Kingpin, Wilson Fisk, is a massive, violent, sadistic brute who hides his ruthlessness behind a debonair, charitable demeanor.
What has he done?
Starting out as a hitman working for crooked bookie “The Fixer” and gang boss Policano, Fisk was said to have killed more people than cancer using only his fists, and was involved with the death of Matt’s father Jack after he refused to take a fall during a boxing match. After Daredevil kills Fixer and Policano, Fisk decides to take over the gang.
Throughout his tenure as the Kingpin, Fisk enables drugs to be sold on the streets to children and allows crimes like bank robberies and murder to happen, while posing as a charitiable figure to the public. Fisk has several crime bosses killed for getting in the way of his business, and when one of the dons in a meeting disapproves of Fisk’s plan to start a gang war, Fisk gets up to massage his neck… only to break his collarbone and kill him, horrifying even the other mobsters in the room.
To kill more mobsters and claim their turf, Fisk hires Bullseye to set fire to several apartments full of people, including children, in order to drive the prices down, with over 15 major fires in the past 18 months; should a contractor choose someone else instead of Fisk to refurbish their buildings, Fisk has their kids and family injured and threatened with murder if they don’t work for him. Fisk has Bullseye set fire to the nightclub The Sandworm because a mafia don is inside, leading to a nearby apartment catching fire and almost killing everyone inside.
With Fisk suspecting his old friend Nikos Natchios of siphoning his money to his private bank account in an attempt to reform, he gives him the choice of facing prison, or allowing him to use his connections for his import-export activities; when Nikos refuses both options, Fisk chooses to kill Nikos on the spot, hoping to pose the murder as a suicide, but he’s interrupted by Matt.
Later killing Nikos by having him kidnapped and beating him until he’s barely conscious, Fisk smugly lets him know that he plans to marry Elektra to complete his revenge against Nikos, then has Bullseye drown Nikos in a frozen lake. Fisk later gets Elektra on his side after Nikos’s death, having once saved her from a kidnapper named Ken Sugimoto in Japan many years ago. But as soon as the two get inside Fisk’s limo, Fisk reveals that he had her kidnapped by Sugimoto when she and her family were in Japan-– which led to her mom dying from stress—swooping in to save her just so the Natchios would be indebted to him.
Fisk has Elektra drugged to become his pet assassin once he reveals the truth, getting her to kill anybody who stands in his way of his ultimate plan: to become mayor. To get Matt off his back, Fisk frames him for a variety of crimes, then bribes the judge to have him disbarred. Matt goes straight to Fisk after a failed attempt to kill him, with Fisk revealing that he was not only there when his dad died, but would’ve preferred leaving him permanently crippled to further ruin his life. After a fight, Fisk sadistically reveals to Matt that Elektra’s working for him, then has him knocked out, shot, and thrown into the sewage.
After finding out Matt survived after a month-long coma, Fisk crushes the skull of the goon meant to kill him, then hires Bullseye to kill his rival candidate Diane Albright during a debate. After the assasination attempt fails and Matt reveals the extent of his depravity to the public, Fisk gets into one final battle with Daredevil at his headquarters. The fight ends with Fisk dangling from the rooftop; Fisk begs Daredevil to save him, but instead tries to shoot him, leading to Daredevil dropping him and letting Fisk die from the fall.
“Justice is blind.”
Redeeming Qualities?
There’s one scene where, during his final moments with Nikos before he’s killed, Fisk says he’ll miss his days with Nikos before he brutally beats him to a pulp, implying he might’ve cared for him... but immediately after that, he smugly tells him that he’ll marry Elektra as a final act of revenge, even hoping he’s still alive to hear what he said because he wants him to suffer. While it’s possible he might’ve liked Nikos in the past, that friendship has sailed away for good once he found out he didn’t want to be a hard-edged criminal anymore.
And that defines Fisk in this script. Whatever care he might’ve had for some people, he tossed that aside in his quest for power. He was always an asshole, but he became something far worse as Kingpin. Nothing nice, clean, or good about him, just a sadist who loves to murder and control people to his liking.
Heinousness?
Fisk is the de facto Big Bad, responsible for a ton of murder, bloodshed, and very petty acts of cruelty. Everything wrong about Hell’s Kitchen, its crime and corruption, as well as Bullseye’s bodycount, can all be traced back to him.
Conclusion
I think he keeps.
"No running in the halls!"
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Fisk
Presume the other will be Bullseye?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Goku Black
Fisk
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to this Kingpin
The Emperor of Evil!
to Kingpin
Professor Gigachad
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Kingpin.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I might have a new keeper for the ASOIAF franchise.
What's the work?
Histories & Lore is a series of animated videos released for each season of Game of Thrones. "The Night's Watch" is the twelfth featurette of the second season and the thirty-sixth featurette of the series overall.
Who is the Night's King? What has he done?
The Night's King was once the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch before he found a cold woman with blue eyes in the woods. He brought her home, made her his queen and declared himself the "Night's King".
He and his "queen" ruled over the Wall for 13 years and during this time they commited mass human sacrifices or as the narrative puts it "sacrifices as black as their cloaks".
The atrocities commited during their reign were so terrible that the Free Folk and the Starks united, stormed Nightfort and put an end to their tyranny once and for all.
Mitigating factors
This story was adapted from the novels but ironically, he doesn't count in the books because it's made clear he was brainwashed by the female monstrosity he found. I am not going to propose the Night Queen because there is too much indication she is a Night Walker which puts her moral agency into question.
However, in this version of the story there is no indication the Night's King was brainwashed into making the human sacrifices and as far as we know, he chose to do them on his own. And unlike his "queen", he is human, so his evil is not caused by nature but by choice.
Heinous standard
I am not really sure about this one, but I think he might pass it. He has made human sacrifices for 13 years and they were regarded as so terrible that the Free Folk and the Starks who normally hate each other decided to unite their armies to defeat him.
Plus, I think we can judge him a bit more leniently compared to the other keepers when it comes to heinousness because this guy comes from a myth and we don't even know if he actually existed, but even if we don't give him leniency, I still think that commiting mass human sacrifices over the course of 13 years that were so bad that they caused two warring sides to unite against him and put an end to his tyranny should probably make him worse than someone like Joffrey.
Conclusion
I am not really sure here, so I leave it up to you.
The Draftsman of Doom
Insert joke here about Hunter being the Hunt-ed.
What is the work?
"City Under Siege" is a three part special in Hunter's fifth season, consisting of the 11th, 12th, and 13th episodes.
While Det. Sgt. Dee Dee McCall goes undercover at a school to investigate a teacher's murder, a convict who Det. Sgt. Rick Hunter had previously arrested antagonizes him, accompanied by her even more bloodthirsty paramour.
Who is "Billy Joe" and what has he done?
William Joseph Powell, regularly referred to by the nickname of "Billy Joe", is an escaped serial killer turned spree killer alongside fellow convict and paramour Iris Smith.
Billy Joe is introduced intercepting Iris's police escort in Texas on the way to her execution.
When Iris and Billy make it to LA, their first stop is to kill Iris's former civics teacher and forcing Det. Sgt. Rick Hunter to listen.
Their actions provoke a local single father into performing acts of vigilantism.
When their motel room is raided by the police, Billy Joe tries to shoot them before running away on foot.
Billy Joe subsequently assists Iris in binding, gagging, and murdering a mechanic, again forcing Hunter to listen, having previously tormented the victim by holding a razor up to his skin.
Unfortunately for Billy Joe, his razor is left at the scene, and it is recognized as a murder weapon like the one used in a series of prostitute murders, and his prints are on the blade.
Later on, Billy Joe loses patience with Iris when he realizes that she intends to delay killing Hunter. Despite Iris's objections, Billy Joe runs off to kill the vigilante he saw on TV.
When Hunter attempts to confront Billy Joe at his hotel room, Billy Joe, having been notified by the front desk, shoots two of Hunter's fellow officers.
In a warehouse shootout, Billy Joe also attempts to shoot at both Hunter and a police chopper, but Hunter neutralizes him.
Mitigating Factors?
Billy Joe is primarily involved with Iris because of shared bloodlust, and when he doesn't get what he wants from her, he runs off to get what he wants without her. Iris tells Billy Joe she loves him, and he doesn't respond verbally. Billy Joe ultimately seems to value Iris more as an accomplice and sex partner than he does as a person. Iris may be upset by Billy Joe's death, but I can't guarantee he reciprocates.As for offscreen villainy, Billy Joe's actions in the present basically establish a pattern of violence for his actions in the past, given that we see him put a razor up to people's skin in the present, and we see him murder people in other ways as well.
Heinousness?
There is one serial killer who has a possibly higher attempted body count at 29 over the course of 5 years; Lord Tony Rutherford, "The Lullaby Killer", murders British prostitutes and plays "Brahms' Lullaby", because he sees his mother as having been a prostitute whom he blames for his father's suicide. However, Tony has more resources than Billy Joe, including friends in high places in British Society.Considering the 14 prostitutes he killed over the course of 3 years with a razor, the two cops he killed taking Iris Smith on a killing spree, two victims shared with Iris, the two cops he attempted to shoot, the vigilante he killed by himself, and having shot 2 LAPD officers apparently killing one and also trying to shoot Hunter dead, plus attempting to shoot a police helicopter pilot and any passengers, he has an attempted body-count of about 23-25 (he tries to shoot Hunter twice), potentially one of the higher individual body counts for a murderer in the series using conventional melee weapons and firearms without any known military training or equipment.
Billy Joe does not need to compete with explosives expert Otto Minsky or arsonist Donnie Warrick, because doesn't have military training or equipment, nor does he have knowledge of explosives.
Within the episode itself, he blows his co-conspirator Iris out of the water due to her pragmatism (she has a previous murder, was a dangerous inmate, plus killed the two victims Billy Joe helped with), and he also overshadows the other antagonists, namely a teenage extortionist who records sextapes, and a vigilante who kills a burglar.
All said and done, Billy Joe is worthy of discussion primarily based on the fact that he goes from being a serial killer to being a spree killer.
Verdict?
Worthy of Discussion if nothing else.Edit: Abstain on NK.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Aug 16th 2022 at 2:44:13 PM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Sure on the others, but no to the Night's Kind. Big biggest issue is his relationship to his queen, since he "gave her his soul."
I'm not inclined to believe he didn't care about her without evidence to the contrary
Professor Gigachad
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
What exactly does that mean, since the way you are describing it, it sounds way to vague to be a redeeming quality. I am leaning for now.
Billy Joe.
Goku Black
Billy Joe.
This passage is from the books which is a different canon. In the version I am proposing (from Histories & Lore), this is how their relationship is described:
For thirteen years, he and his queen ruled over his brothers, making sacrifices as black as their cloaks. Lucky for you southerners, the Free Folk rallied to a King-Beyond-the-Wall, as we will when need be, and marched on the ancient castle he had taken as his own, the Nightfort.
With the help of the Starks, we killed the demon and cleansed your precious watch. And then they thanked us and kicked us back across the Wall. As you always have.
Edited by WatTambor on Aug 16th 2022 at 9:55:44 PM
I'm not really okay with just handwaving a vague myth when he takes her out of the woods and reigns with her like that for years. If we're dealing with such scant details and there's a potential redeeming quality? I'm treating it with serious scrutiny in this case.
Professor Gigachad
I am not really seeing a potential redeeming quality, if all it tells us is he took her to the wall and ruled for a long time with that doesn't tell us anything on why or how.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Aug 16th 2022 at 12:00:55 PM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
I don't see how the sole act of taking her out of the dangerous and freezing woods and back to the Wall isn't redeeming in and of itself.
Yes to Billy however.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
He found an evil White Walker woman in the woods, took her home, reigned alongside her as her queen to his king and there's seriously zero concern he cared about her, when all we have is a few paragraphs?
His relationship with her could be interpreted as him gaining power from her in some way because she is a White Walker or something like that. If we don't actually see him being affectionate to her, I don't think we should see it as a redeeming quality.
EDIT: I will vote on the others a bit later.
Edited by WatTambor on Aug 16th 2022 at 10:03:57 PM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
By definition it wouldn't be a crossover since a crossover is taking two franchises and putting characters in them together. This isn't using characters from the Metroid franchise just characters based on them. The author doesn't also list it as a crossover despite the fact fanfiction.net provides that option.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes