During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So the tree'll look like this:
- The Blazing Blade has two Morphs:
- Ephidel
- Sonia Reed...
Edited by ACW on Jun 10th 2022 at 11:01:33 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Edit: I didn't notice all the Eps from the previous page. I'll probably wait a bit before reposting mine.
Yes to Polly and Ephidel.
Edited by Silverblade2 on Jun 10th 2022 at 5:30:55 PM
@ACW
I lighten Incanto's draft quite a bit, I removed the whole Ellen apartment scene.
Is it better?
Again, my suggestion with Stranger Things 4 is we wait until 7/15 because the whole season—the last two episodes—is not out until 7/1. I'm not just suggesting this because I haven't seen any of this season yet at all. I'm also suggesting this because there's a lot that could probably happen in those last two episodes.
There's clearly interest in the discussion now though, so I'll accept whatever decision the thread makes. It also sounds like there's not a shortage of things to discuss either. I still find it odd they didn't divide the season in half but instead premiered most of it while holding off the last two episodes for a month later certainly.
All I'll say about the first half of the final season of Better Call Saul (midseason finale was 5/23, so discussion was supposed to be 6/6) is that even still, nobody counts. Simple as that.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 10th 2022 at 8:25:23 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Polly & Eph
Okay, so what I'll say on Stranger Things right now...
Vecna is the obvious potential. Barring some really out-of-nowhere last minute revelations, it's almost certain I'll have an EP up two weeks after the finale—it's gonna be a few years until the final season and we more-or-less did the same with the Mind Flayer. I'll give you all more details after season 4, regardless of where Vecna lands. Likewise the Russian warden is fucked, but he's still alive, so I'm gonna wait on the last two episodes to make a judgment.
Dr. Brenner, on the other hand, is pretty much done for this trope. He returns, alive and well, in season 4, and while he's still a child-torturing asshole, Vecna's Moral Event Horizon provokes a genuine moment of horror from him. He cradles the body of one of his own dead test subjects. Furthermore, while it's not enough to cut him on its own yet, they're clearly indicating Brenner's feelings for Eleven—warped as shit though they may be—go beyond just seeing her as a test subject.
My proposal is we can either chop him now since his redeeming quality is, IMO, pretty undebatable, or we can wait until the end of season 4, since I understand people may want to see where things go.
What say we?
Edited by Scraggle on Jun 10th 2022 at 10:09:23 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Great summary and good job. I'll personally lean toward "wait and see" for both.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Yes but he hasn't shown up yet in the season althought it's speculated that Vecna works with him.
Edited by Silverblade2 on Jun 10th 2022 at 6:14:14 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I say wait. It looks like the final episodes are only a month or so away.
Speaking of the Flayer, is it still around?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Professor Gigachad
I would personally say chop Brenner now. It would be rather weird to leave him up on this trope when he has gotten this clear of a redeeming quality on the very slim chance he might subvert it, and when I say slim I mean very, very slim. And it will likely confuse a lot of people.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
They've been building up that Vecna is the Mind Flayer's Dragon. 99% chance they'll capitalize on that in the last two episodes, since it's the one big plot thread they've left completely ambiguous so far.
While I hardly know anything else and skimmed certain parts of what's been written here so far, Vecna being so heavily advertised made me think he either WAS the Mind Flayer or the Mind Flayer was dead and this is who it answered to. Still trying to avoid spoilers for the most part. Have no real idea as to what's coming next.
Briefly reading the part about Brenner, Goddamn. Ever since I saw that still of him embracing and comforting Eleven, I've had a feeling he would probably have to be cut—and I actually originally thought he didn't count back with the first season because he seemed more than just obsessed with El and legit looked relieved to have her back. ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to keeping him either way though.
Savage bastard, but redemptive qualities are there. No dispute and no way around them.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 10th 2022 at 9:36:54 AM
I’d say we wait until Part 2 arrive to evaluate candidates (of course we’d have to wait 2 weeks after that). As you can see on the profile pic, I’m definitely looking forward to discussion about Vecna
Professor Gigachad
The thing I am worried about the most is that if we keep Brenner waiting for part 2 to come it could disrupt troping on the rest of the site and cause a lot of confusion because he currently has entries like Even Evil Has Loved Ones while at the same time still being up as a Complete Monster on a technicality.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
You know...that's not an unfair point. Maybe just cut him now and we can always add back later if something happens.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@G Yeah I agree. I would indeed rather evaluate the season as a whole rather than in parts. What I said above about Better Call Saul's final season first half was very brief and its something that's mostly been very consistent throughout the show's run.
It's like how when all the Fear Street movies came out one week after another last summer and we waited until two weeks after the last one to have discussion. It felt like the right decision. Would've been confusing discussing only one movie at a time when one or two others were also out and with Stranger Things 4, there's still clearly not the big picture with two episodes left.
Honestly, I'm good either way. I can accept whatever we decide about Brenner now.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 10th 2022 at 9:34:38 AM
Professor Gigachad
I do understand why people would want to wait, but I just personally feel like we should take into account more the fact that this site is not just the CM thread and us doing this could cause quite a bit of problems for the site as a whole.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Well, guess we have one less entry for Multimedia.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Professor Gigachad
Brenner was removed from that some time ago.
Yes to Polly and Ephidel. I'm with Gabe on cutting Brenner but waiting on Venca, there's no way the former is getting back on the list. His redeeming qualities are quite clearcut now.
Looking at what Scraggle has written, cut Brenner. This sounds like a redeeming quality that's very unlikely to be subverted later on.
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Ephy and Polly.
Hold off on Stranger Things, except for cutting the Doctor.
I'm making my no to keeping Brenner official now if it wasn't already. Cut him.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 10th 2022 at 9:54:14 AM
Goku Black
Cut Brenner. Keep an eye on Vecna.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Btw gonna be joining the lads on this one for discussion later!
Ephidel first