During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
mu
oh yes, mordo survives. My mistake. I had not seen the chapter where that was revealed.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
It's fine like I said Goblin didn't know that and he followed it up by trying to do the same to Peter, who had no way of surviving.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The Draftsman of Doom
Thanks Nwot. Happy Hannukkah W, Lighty.
Having just watched the Brodus episode, the dialogue is accurate, and I have no justification to doubt his familial affection towards his mother.
It's not like he took advantage of his mother's life insurance policy to commit crimes. It's not like he's using the memory of a supposed loved one to manipulate other people.
He's a mama's boy, plain and simple.
I'm afraid my final answer is that Brodus is a cut.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 28th 2021 at 11:49:49 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Cut Brodus then. Still a no on Morten. Eight deaths, however cruel, and a Kick the Dog moment can't compete with a show where double-digit rapes AND murders are common, unless the bomb planned to kill dozens, and even then it's close.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
The Draftsman of Doom
I'll take your word on Gob.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Seconded. If Goblin has moral agency, I'll give a yes, as he definitely seems heinous enough.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Cut Brodus but I'm holding my yes for Morten.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Brodus
Solidifyed ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Gobby
Yes to Goblin abd a solidified yes to Morten. But cut Brodus
to the Goblin. to Morten and Frieza.
Cut Brodus.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Rob and Gob
Cut Brodus
"No running in the halls!"
Professor Gigachad
Morten, sorry I just can't see him in a franchise with a standard this high no matter how cruel.
Cut Brodus
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Lizzid people!
I'm fine with Morten.
The Moron
Yeah, with how much damage he did before being caught and then being responsible for a lot more even while in prison, I think I'm cool with Morten too if only barely. Cut the other guy though
Very weak yes to Morten. Chop Brodus inmediately—I have no idea how the OP was able to skip a redeeming quality that obvious.
@MinisterOfSinister: My mistake regarding the details of the consorts (I do remember the very loud, comical offscreen sex) but my point regarding the second playable Overlord being crazy nasty stands; the Freudian Excuse doesn't change his actions and the fact fact you're required to play an evil, evil SOB no matter which options you're choosing.
I'm open to the idea of an EP, particularly with the refresher that you don't need to play the first Overlord as a slavering psycho (I always picked the highest corruption route; even the protagonist of the first game can potentially go out of their way to massacre thousands) but with that particular note about heinousness in mind.
Who do you want to post, anyway? The precursor Overlord (the one possessing the Wizard)? Florian Greenheart?
Edited by Scraggle on Nov 28th 2021 at 11:10:22 AM
From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm not saying Fourth Overlord's FE excuses it, it's more like a quiet explanation for why he's different from the Third, and also means that he can't count as a Villain Protagonist CM. (Plus he has a loved one, Kelda, his childhood friend and first Love Interest.) I find it helps to think of high Corruption Overlord as an atom bomb gladly blowing the world up bit by bit for fun and giggles and killing bad people on the way. The low Corruption Overlord is more of a precision strike, only going after the people he specifically needs/wants to kill, and otherwise trying to keep the world intact, even if it's just because of Pragmatic Villainy.
As for candidates, well, the Second Overlord, Forgotten God and Florian all leapt to mind, yes. The Second Overlord especially is responsible for everything in the first game outside the Raising Hell expansion pack, having manipulated the Seven Heroes into corruption and sic'd the player on them to release the Evil Energy necessary to facilitate his return to power. He gloats about how he did it during the final boss fight too, and there are just enough hints of his presence elsewhere (Sir William namedrops the Wizard, whom the Second Overlord possessed, saying he's always watching, a blink-and-you'll-miss-it appearance during a cutscene in the Dwarf area and Kahn namedrops the Wizard as well, assuming you're in league with him because you beat four of the other heroes and captured his partner Jewell) that his actions count as onscreen and he has just enough personality to count. So, starting with him. Be back in a bit.
Edited by MinisterOfSinister on Nov 28th 2021 at 6:21:01 PM
Professor Gigachad
The thing is it doesn't matter if The Overlord doesn't count as a CM he still contributes to the heinous standard.
From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye!
Something I will absolutely bear in mind. Doing some research on the rest of the series right now to get the full scope.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- Savage Land:
- Shanna the She-Devil Vol. 1 issue #2 ("The Sahara Connection"): El Montano ("The Mountain Man") is a slaver who regularly has droves of innocents from the Fulani tribe kidnapped and trafficked as slaves, with anyone who resists gunned down. El Montano is also a vile drug dealer who seeks to buy thousands of slaves with the huge score of heroin he plans to sell.
- Savage Tales Vol. 1 issue #9's
- "Beneath the Palace of Pain" (feat. Ka-Zar): Queen Omell, supposedly the noble ruler of Palandor deposed by her evil brother Sann, is anything but what she claims. Omell is actually a tyrant who allows her citizens to languish and die under horrible, widespread starvation, with any who dare to so much as beg for food struck down by her sadistic guards. Upon manipulating Ka-Zar into returning her to the throne, Omell tries to kill both Ka-Zar and her own brother Sann by feeding them to a monstrous beast, only pausing first to kick one of her own followers to the beast for fun.
- "The Golden Blood-Beasts of Daka-Jur!" (feat. Shanna the She-Devil) (also Rampaging Hulk Vol. 1 issue #9's "The Wrath of Raga-Shah!"): Raga-Shah, High Priest of Daka-Jur, is a human-sacrificing zealot responsible for the death of thousands who seeks the destruction of the entire world so as to be reborn into a new one for his taking. Raga-Shah seduced a woman named Sarapha Singh for the purpose of becoming a sacrifice, ordering her brother killed and over a dozen innocent people slaughtered alongside him. Raga-Shah bests Shanna the first time and returns in an attempt to torture her to death, promising to make her death a "spectacle." Any claims he makes of being a Necessary Evil die next to his sadism and self-admitted "fascination with torment", admitting he can't wait to think about the terrifying last minutes of every human on Earth.
Wow I can’t believe that I missed that in Brodus. It was a while back and was more focus on the brutality of his crimes, but still should have also looked closely on that as well. Anyways you can cut Brodus.
I’m still keeping my for Morten
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 28th 2021 at 8:55:14 AM
Continuing to work down my Marvel list...this guy appeared in the Civil War arc, specifically Civil War: Young Avengers & Runaways, then met his end in Secret Invasion.
What has the Cube Warden done?
Warden of a place named—get this—the Cube. The warden is a government-licensed Torture Technician, and the Cube is a prison for superhumans that the US government disappears. The warden doesn't care about innocence or guilt; he views society as a carcass, superhumans as maggots, and himself as somebody with no limits as to what he'll do to get his jollies.
The Cube has hundreds of prisoners, all of them blasted 24/7 with paranoia agents that inspire them to self-mutilate and break down. His prize "toy" is Noh-Varr—a Kree and the future Marvel Boy—whom the warden severed from the Kree hivemind. The Warden proceeded to Mind Rape Noh-Varr until he was able to fashion Noh-Varr into a living weapon ("oh, the fun I had stomping around in his mind..."); on Noh-Varr's end, this is as pure a state as And I Must Scream as it gets, as he's still conscious beneath the warden's psychological warping. When Vision accidentally phases his hand into Noh-Varr, the warden growls at his men to leave it stuck in Noh-Varr so he can see what happens.
The warden manages to capture four heroes—Xavin, Wiccan, Hulkling, and Karolina Dean—and proceeds to begin torturing them for nothing but fun, forcing them all to watch what he does to the others. As he conducts live dissections on Hulkling the warden muses that because of Hulkling's Healing Factor, he'll be able to slash up Hulkling for days on end while keeping him alive. Thankfully, Noh-Varr manages to break free of the bastard's control, reduces him to a pet for a little while and takes over the Cube, after which the warden is unceremoniously and brutally killed by a Skrull.
Any mitigating factors?
Nothing. I'll be laconic here—Mind Rape and Cold-Blooded Torture on hundreds of people. The warden has no illusions about what he's doing. He's just a wicked sadist bastard.
Conclusion?
Nice and easy keeper.
Yes to the guy who works as a warden at a place called the Cube.
Weak yes to Morten. Yes to Warden. Cut Borduis.
Edited by YobabyColin on Nov 28th 2021 at 2:15:34 PM
Happy Chanukkah Sky (and any other of my fellow Jews).
As for Morten...I guess the question is, IF he was the one behind the bomb, did he intend to blow up the entire building (in which case I guess he's a yes) or kill only a few officers (in which case I'm still a no).
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts