Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Video game examples sound good.

What is Uni, if you don't mind my asking?

edited 27th Aug '12 5:48:41 PM by DrPsyche

For the Fallout subpage, should Vulpes Inculta be included there? The entry could go like:

Anything to improve this with, if it were to be here at all?

But I did refer to an individual. I'm just stating that this cannot apply to the faction as a whole, though given that I had a starting sentence be this, this may not precisely be the best wording.

edited 27th Aug '12 8:09:17 PM by EarlOfSandvich

Only individuals can be Complete Monsters.

University, or College I guess for American tropers.

Yeah, Caeser's legion probably should get cut. Vulpes however probably should be included for how creative he was with his attrocities.

Again, thank you for clearing that up for me (I apologize for my ignorance).

If no one objects I will go and cut Cad Bane from the CM list.

No objections, he clearly has standards and has moments of aultistic actions.

No objections.

Wondered if I could bring up another example- Boardwalk Empire- think I raised it at some point before, but am not sure there was consensus. This is one of those works in which there are zero good characters and the protagonists can be pretty heinous (I'm not sure if this fits into the calculation, but in season 2, there seemed to be very inconsistent writing regarding what standards if any the two main protagonists had):

• Complete Monster:
  • One of Capone's rivals, Charlie Sheridan, is definitely this one. Cutting a ghastly scar into the face of Jimmy's girlfriend kinda gave it away.
  • Manny Horvitz, the Jewish butcher/bootlegger from Philadelphia. Quite possibly the scariest person on the entire show. Manny killing Angela and her lover in Jimmy's house places him firmly in this category.
  • Owen Sleater is pretty callous and brutal, even for being a character on this show.
  • Arnold Rothstein is polite and intelligent but is absolutely ruthless and has no problem ordering murders for his own benefit. He mentions that he once caused a man to choke to death for his own amusement.
  • Hans Schroeder in the pilot. He's a violent, abusive bastard who mistreats and beats his wife and children and beats his wife so hard she lost a baby. His fate (Being viciously beaten to death and tossed in the ocean) is so well deserved You almost want to shake Nucky's hand.

I think Hans and Charlie could count, as they are clearly presented as way more despicable than the protagonists (so you root for the protagonists when they kill them).

Rothstein is a bad example in that the "pool incident"* is not shown on screen, and in terms of on screen behavior, nothing he does is all that bad for the series (not sure if intentional, but IMO he actually seemed to be one of the less evil characters in the show by the end of the second season). He's also shown to be affectionate toward his wife.

• As recounted by Rothstein, a guy made a living betting people that he could swallow cue balls decided to make the bet with Rothstein, who knew the man's reputation. Not liking an attempt to cheat him, Rothstein brought a cue ball slightly larger than normal so that the man choked to death.

Owen also seems like a bad example, as while I don't dispute that he's probably a sociopath, I don't think he's quite evil enough for the series, and he does have some positive moments- while part of it is probably because he's interested in her, he seems to genuinely have affection for Margaret's children and seems sorrowful when one of them got polio. He also once acknowledges another hitman whose also an ex-soldier as a Worthy Opponent and they decide not to kill each other.

Manny is a harder case. I'm not sure if he really displays good qualities on screen (unless his devout albeit unusual/selective Jewish observance counts). My problem is that his evil actions are pretty understandable. The tl; dr version is that he had a very good reason to kill Jimmy (can elaborate if wanted), and was surprised when the person he shot at in the shower was Jimmy's wife's lesbian lover and not Jimmy. He then killed Jimmy's wife partly for revenge, but also so there wouldn't be witnesses. While I think it's probable that he would have still killed any witness had Jimmy been there, I think it's important to note that he didn't go in plotting to kill innocents.

edited 27th Aug '12 9:44:46 PM by Jordan

Never seen this, so I've got a fresh perspective.

If Hans and Charlie count, the write-up should be better. Perhaps you can elaborate more on them please?

As nrjxll repeatedly pointed out (and I agree with), the character's (in this case Hans) fate is irrelevant to their CM status.

Can you elaborate Manny's reason for trying to kill Jimmey? Aside from that, what he does seems pretty bad.

You're right about Rothstein, Offstage Villainy does not count. Does he do anything else heinous?

Owen, from what you say, I'm inclined to cut.

Been a while since I've seen it, but basically, Manny is a kosher butcher as well as a bootleger, and got into a business relationship with Jimmy (one of the protagonists, who oscilates between being a Noble Demon and being a psychopath). Manny kind of didn't like Jimmy because he saw him as someone putting on airs without competence to back it up.

For reasons beyond his control, Jimmy ended up not having money to pay Manny back right away, but even after he probably could have paid Manny easily, sort of made a point of putting it off just be be rude (because he realized that Manny was mocking him in earlier conversations, and in one of the later episodes, makes anti-semitic jokes about Manny who was just out of earshot (but probably did hear).

Eventually, Jimmy authorizes Manny's archrival to assassinate him rather than paying Manny what he owes him. The attempt fails, and Manny traces the assassin back to Jimmy. Basically, Manny's reason for killing Jimmy/willingness to kill Jimmy's wife is that at this point, no amount of money would be enough to make amends (particularly given that Jimmy ordered a hit on Manny rather than paying him back which wouldn't have been that difficult).

Edit- something I'm not sure how to describe is that Manny is a sadistic killer, but he sort of has a code of honor that's all about meeting your responsibilities. There's also some At Least I Admit It or something like that, wherein he doesn't like people who are killers but try to pretend they are better than him.

Also, because Waxy Gordon (the archrival mentioned above) double crossed Manny once, he's Manny's Berserk Button- one of Manny's nastier scenes involves him torturing one of his men who had had business dealings with Waxy. Manny sort of coerces Jimmy into killing the guy to prove himself (Manny won't kill him since he is a kosher butcher and it wouldn't be right for him to kill a person in his butcher shop- torturing him on a meat hook is ok I guess).

edited 27th Aug '12 10:45:22 PM by Jordan

Maybe Blood Knight (willingness to commit violent acts, but then there's the sadism, so I stress the maybe). Maybe Even Evil Has Standards.

edited 27th Aug '12 10:49:56 PM by DrPsyche

Sorry that was such a long description. My tl; dr version is that Manny is sort of similar to Niska in Firefly in personality and ethos(except that Manny's criminal enterprises are less harmful to innocents)- they both have a "code of honor", but that code doesn't really line up with the moral standards of normal people- the most obvious issue is that Manny and Niska consider themselves good people according to their codes.

Okay, I saw Firefly, and Nyska or Niska, was the only recurring villain (besides Saffron). He is considered a complete monster despite following his own code. However, you point out that Manny's efforts affect innocent civilians less, which differentiates him more from Niska (Nyska?). From what you've described, that seems to be true.

From what you've said, I think Manny is one of those guys who falls just shy of the Heinous line.

Thanks for the input. Thought I'd bring up Firefly since most tropers have seen that. Part of the reason that I brought up inconsistent characterization is that in some episodes, Jimmy was horrified by Manny's violence and Manny was definitely presented as bad by the standards of the series. However, other episodes would show Jimmy being just as sadistic as well as a petty jerk.

So, there's kind of an issue of whether there can be "evil by the standards of the story" when the story has no (clear) standards.

In universe, one could call it Characterization Marches On (If he didn't like it in originally, and the later episodes play up the sadism), or maybe one could say he was a hypocrite. This is a big problem in Comic Books, where so many things involve Depending on the Writer. However, for that, Shaoken clarified that they should be listed on the individual pages for the comic series (where the trope applies) and on the main page. Boardwalk Empire is one series, so we have to rule that out. How sadistic is he in current episodes?

EDIT: good use of a property many people would know for a valid example.

edited 28th Aug '12 12:21:41 AM by DrPsyche

I haven't seen Firefly, so I'm at a bit of a loss here, so I need some further elaboration on Hans in particular. Cutting someone's girlfriend seems way farther down on the heinous scale than shoving a cue ball in someone's mouth and killing them, for instance. What else does he do?

Hmm... I'm starting to think that it might be worth making a Sandbox for the Monster.Film page. We've been touching upon it multiple times of late, and maybe it'd be easier to hit it all in one go.

First, to touch upon a couple of settled items, just for my own peace of mind...

Yes, I agree with cutting Cad Bane. Relatedly, I agree that there should be two distinct entries for Palpatine, one for the movies and one for the expanded universe (the latter on the basis that the "defend against the Vong" argument was just a hollow excuse in-canon).

Technically speaking, it was actually the attempted rape that convinced me that Gym belonged. That said, given the treacherous circumstances, I completely agree with including the murder of The Dragon.

Upon reviewing Vulpes Inculta, I'd agree that they belong. However, the wording on that is misleading - by starting with Caesar's Legion, you make it sound at first like the example is about them. If you want to make it clear, your first sentence needs to state the specific game as well as the name of the Complete Monster. And nothing else. Further backup goes in further sentences.

For Boardwalk Empire - Ah, okay, found why I was confused... Jordan, you previously posted about that in the Trope Talk post about this trope before that one got locked. Anyhow, since we're all consolidated now...

I think a big problem I'm having is that the examples are mostly context-free. Only Hans seems to have a description of what he was doing and how vicious he otherwise was. As things stand, that's the only example I'd keep. I'd want more elaboration on both Charlie before making a final decision on them, based on what @2684 says.

Based on @2686, I'm inclined to cut Manny. Beyond not seeming that heinous, it also seems relatively understandable based on the circumstances. I could see that string leading to Manny becoming a CM later, but not yet.

That's probably best for Palpatine. Film Sandbox, is also a good idea.

Also, remember the conversation we had about Lord Shen in Kung Fu Panda 2, we all agreed to cut him. Does anyone object to me slicing him off the YMMV page? If there are no objections, could someone get me the link to the post that this was first proposed?

I am kind of against the idea of Film Sandbox because the Film page seems to be clean, with maybe few more examples to cut; although I am not familiar with some of them.

These examples were added today on Literature:

Since they haven't been through here, and I know nothing on the series, I'm bringing them here for evaluation.

edited 28th Aug '12 10:14:01 AM by lu127

I am not familiar with the series either but based on the description;

Christopher's case, I am leaning towards keep, but CAPSLOCK has to be removed.

Motley seems like a pretty clear example

The last one, I have a feeling she is not heinous enough compared to the previous two.

edited 28th Aug '12 11:08:49 AM by Krystoff

I don't know that the Film page is clean... seems like we cut about half of what gets brought up every time an example from there is mentioned.

For those Literature examples... Something seems very off. First off, spurious emphasis via capslock is a red flag to me. Moreover, one character being "potentially worse" strikes me as having two issues. One is that "potentially" is equivalent to "arguably" when it comes to examples, and we all know that Examples Are Not Arguable. The other is that if the second character is more heinous, that means that the first isn't as heinous, and thus would be eliminated from Complete Monster contention.

That third example also sounds much less terrible than either of the first two. There's suggestions that the first two are potentially causing apocalypses - stealing secrets from one person and eating another's soul is just not heinous enough given the circumstances.

I think we should do what we previously did with Gym Ghingnham - cut the whole thing and invite the troper who wrote it to come in and discuss the example. It worked well in Gym's case - we got a much more solid entry due to the effort. As things currently stand, I'd only approve the second, but I'm able to be convinced.

Thanks. Anyways, I revised this a little now, and rearranged the entries on the subpage in this sandbox so that the entries are in sequential order (including my proposed entry with revision). Look good?

And no, it's not to bypass anything. I made this so that I can sort the entries into something that at least makes sequential sense; will remove ASAP

edited 28th Aug '12 12:16:58 PM by EarlOfSandvich

@2669: For the Abarat examples, I definitely think Mater Motley counts while I'm not sure about Princess Boa yet. From what I hear, she's definitely a Bitch in Sheep's Clothing but I haven't gotten far enough into the series to see her in action.

I can safely say that Christopher Carrion doesn't count though, as Clive Barker puts too much time in making Carrion a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds. Carrion does want to cause the apocalypse, but, after Carrion's mother and siblings died in a fire, his grandmother, Mater Motley, raised him to be evil and abused him for pretty much his entire life. Heck, Motley once sewed Carrion's lips together for saying the word love. Prior to the story's beginning, Carrion fell in love with Princess Boa and tried to arrange a marriage between the two of them, even sincerely offering to instill peace between Night and Day if she agreed. Princess Boa, from what I've heard, is actually a huge Bitch in Sheep's Clothing who used Carrion to teach her magic then shunned him afterwards. When Carrion heard she was getting married to someone else he sent a dragon to kill her, but then felt immense guilt about what he did afterwards. Years following Boa's death, Carrion's now in love with The Hero, Candy. He's malicious and creepy, but sympathetic enough to avoid the trope.

As for Fallout and the Sandbox: I agree with adding Vulpes Inculta, but the New Reno crime families, Talon Company, and Enclave should be removed. They violate our "no massive groups" rule. The Talon Company and New Reno crimes families aren't even given any specific crimes in their entries, and the Enclave are at least mostly comprised of well-intentioned extremists. The only person from the Enclave who counts is Frank Horrigan, who should get a new entry to himself.

I also vote against including Wernher, from the Pitt. I believe someone brought up an arguement against his inclusion before on this forum but I forget exactly where. Wernher's a former slaver that worked for Ashfur and wants to free the slaves, not because he's a good person who wants to atone, but because he wants power. He's an ass, but the arguement for his inclusion is centered around how he plans on torturing/killing a baby for power, but, from what I remember, that's not true. Wernher needs the girl to make a cure for the Trogg disease and solidify his power. He doesn't like the baby but he doesn't plan on killing her, in fact he hands the girl over to be raised by a fairly kind person.

edited 28th Aug '12 2:51:58 PM by OccasionalExister