During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
25308: Thanks.
25323: ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Doesn't even like this username
I'm inclined to vote ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
on the Hylden/Sarafan Lord.
Let me point out several last things: For starters, the Hylden were immortal. They were sealed away and their ruler later escaped his confinement. Problem there is he would be active during the war. The indication is he was going to wipe out everything before said banishment, too.
And I DID provide you the quote on The Device. The Hylden called The Builder specifically says he created the Device.
And I see a tacit confirmation of a lack of evidence: Not one single line of dialogue the Hylden Lord cares about his race. The argument of "it's never shown he doesn't not care" is faulty, given how he acts towards those who defy him, and how he treats even loyal Hylden as cannon fodder.
It would've been easy for the games to portray him differently, but he ends up quite pure evil
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Lighty, I requested the addition of your Bullseye and Malekith additions, and personally added them the the respective YMMVs.
edited 13th May '14 5:46:04 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Hylden Lord.
I'm going to need to see an effortpost on this one.
A total has-been.
for Hylden Lord.
So I just read the Hylden Lord's and the Hylden's entries on the wiki and I'm leaning no on the Hylden Lord. According to the wiki, it's vague whether or not the Hylden Lord was present during the Elder Wars and he may or may not have been born in the Demon Realm. So right away, I'm not sure about assigning blame to him for anything that happened in the Elder Wars. Secondly, the entry for the Hylden states that their time imprisoned in the Demon Realm both disfigured them and rendered them insane, so now I'm not sure about the Hylden Lord's agency if he was corrupted by the realm. Finally, apparently him caring for his race is a fairly popular belief if the wiki is anything to go by. Some of his quotes lend credence to this and make me think he does care for the Hylden in some capacity.
"Did it not occur to you that perhaps my cause, and not yours, is the cause of right? Of justice? That your ambition to rule this world is but the youthful craving of a petty noble who has gained too much power, but never enough."
"Poetic justice, to topple the foundations of the Pillars from within. We shall have our revenge, in full measure, and for all time."
"With or without [Raziel]—[the Hylden] will prevail."
"It was justice for our banishment from the world. You see what it has made of our fair race."
These quotes imply, to me, a mentality that he does care about his species because he's getting revenge for them, in addition to trying to free them from their hellish prison. Throw in the fact that he mentions creating a "new, glorious age" after freeing the Hylden and I think there's too much uncertainty that, at the very least he thinks, he's a Well-Intentioned Extremist for me to vote in his favor.
edited 13th May '14 8:29:56 AM by OccasionalExister
I have to say this is the first time I have ever, ever encountered the controversy over The Unspoken being born later. There's no indication any Hylden was born there. It's a race of Immortals, and the Hylden Lord was originally going to use the Device before banishment. He and Janos Audron demonstrate intimate familiarity with one another dating back to the prior banishment. His dialogue makes it explicitly clear he was around before the banishment.
For the first quote, context is important: He's trying to throw Kain off his game and rattle him. Kain's following quote is "silence, demon. Your need to corrupt is readily apparent," after which the HL flat out drops that line of reasonong.
While he refers to the Hylden collectively, he has two crimes against Hylden under his belt and worse, he manipulates their destined messiah and tries to flat out murder him when hes no longer useful. And finally, when he and Kain meet, he has no real mention of the legions of Hylden Kain has killed to that point.
And I think Well-Intentioned Extremist is a bit of a misnomer either way. A WIE is someone who may understand what they're doing is extreme...the Hylden Lord simply views killing all humans as no big deal whatsoever, not an evil to be balanced out by the good.
But throwing away the lives of their minions in pursuit of their goals is also true of 89% of all villains—provided they're not Affably Evil or A Father to His Men. These same villains, are also usually willing to punish people for not going along with or opposing their plans. Human villains are willing to let their mooks die all the time without a word, but that doesn't mean we use that as an argument that they don't care about humanity. Not bringing up the deaths of his followers doesn't mean he doesn't care about the Hylden as a whole. It could just mean the individual has less importance than the entire race.
edited 13th May '14 8:48:53 AM by OccasionalExister
Party Crasher
for Hylden Lord.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Lighty, and anyone else, Willbyr requests help for Malekith. I put Lighty's addition at the end, but he's not sure it's best there. What we have now:
edited 19th May '14 11:27:14 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@Psycho Pass: Makishima's write-up looks good. Once we finish up Rikako, we can focus on the third person, Senguji, as I feel he's an edge case.
Your preferences are not everyone else's preferences.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I am wondering f Chris Hagenon ld count in the the newest version of Carrie. Her bullying is much worse and she has no redeeming qualities.
Here are her actions:
- Leads the girls in the showers in bullying Carrie when she's having her period, throwing tampons at her and telling her to "plug it up" while Chris records it on her Smartphone and posts it on You Tube.
- Refuses to attend detention, telling the teacher to go fuck herself and threatening to sue the school.
- Blames Carrie for the fact that she got in trouble, acts like she does not deserve it, and seeks revenge on her, even though it's her own fault and she deserved it.
- Kills a poor helpless pig with no remorse so she can get it's blood.
- Sends Sue (Carrie,s friend) a text message taunting her about the prank she is going to pull on Carrie.
- Not only dumps pig blood on Carrie, but also posts the video of her having her period, showing it to the audience and laughing and calling her a freak.
- Tries to outright murder Carrie for no real reason by running her over with a car.
Please let me note that In this version Carrie only kills her tormentors and no one else, unlike in other versions where she went on a rampage throughout the town and killed hundreds of innocints, so in this version she does absolutely nothing I would consider wrong at all. So there is no argument that she outshines Chris in villainy.
jjj
Lost in Space
That seems like Teens Are Monsters; her actions fail any kind of baseline of heinousness and I would say that she lacks the moral capacity to qualify anyway, being a teenager and not an adult.
She's certainly cruel, but did she commit mass murder? Rape? Genocide? World destruction?
edited 13th May '14 2:14:29 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
"I would say that she lacks the moral capacity to qualify anyway, being a teenager and not an adult."
Huh? Or rather - wow, no.
Anyhow, a lot of that seems fairly petty. Two or so murders on your head is not heinous enough.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
teens can count, heck children can count, remember Henry and Rhoda?
Her crimes are bullying (an EXTREME case of it), animal abuse, and attempted murder.
edited 13th May '14 2:19:15 PM by bobg
jjj
Lost in Space
None of that rises to the minimum bar of heinousness required for the trope.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I thought attempted murder WAS the minimum baseline (which she is guilty of).
edited 13th May '14 2:26:07 PM by bobg
jjj
Carrie is a horror film. A few murders are an integral part of that genre and not in any way sufficient to stand out and meet Complete Monster status.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
There is absolutely zero reason a teen should be disqualified from this trope if they're not mentally handicapped. just for general principle. We have teenagers on the list. Plenty of 'em. Peter Stegman from Class of 1984 comes to mind...of course, he has an innocent kid knifed in the kidneys, pimps out drug addicts, commits murder, organizes a gang rape of a teacher's wife and murders every animal in the science lab. Haguro Dou is a 15-16 year old in Wolf Guy Wolfen Crest but he facilitates a school shooting, kills tons of people, rapes two, one of whom he allows his men to rape and films it to destroy her life in Japan by exposing the video, amongst attempted murder, cannibalism and other horrible atrocities. In other words: the extra mile it takes to make a CM
That said...no. Seriously, no. She's a nasty bully, not a CM. And listing " Refuses to attend detention, telling the teacher to go fuck herself and threatening to sue the school." as a CM worthy action indicates to me there might be some misunderstanding of what the trope is.
Henry and Rhoda, though, are flat out Serial Killer types.
edited 13th May '14 2:31:26 PM by Lightysnake
Lost in Space
Okay, I take back the teen thing. Still, she fails to meet even a baseline standard of heinousness.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Now that I agree with wholeheartedly.
Manami from Life, listed on the Anime and Manga page is a better example, given she actually intends to drive her bullying victims to suicide
My apologies, I'll back off. I've said enough anyway, far enough.