During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Hey! It's me. I finally returned after I get a breathing room. Anyways, yes. I'm sorry for the outburst that happened days ago and I got confronted by Lighty at the end via P Ms. Yes, I will fess up to the major screw ups that I did regarding the HI 3 incident and the pfp incident and I want to learn for my mistakes in the end of the day. Yes, I wanted to learn my lesson at the end of the day and it's understandable why some members of the thread were angry at my actions and took the long way to apologize about it and it's understandable why.
Right now I want to try my best to become a better person in the future even if it seems unlikely and tried to learn my mistakes step by step and I'll admit that I actually considered to retire back then but decided not to and tried to swing once in a blue moon to try my best on participate in both CM and MB cleanup thread in general.
Anyways, it's already October 31st and time to discuss the work that I'm passionate about right now with bobg and Master N, Witch's House and it's candidate Ellen. The bad news is? This discussion is going to be an Anti-EP and I'm going to be honest that this one is going to be a rather sad cut due to her being one of the vilest pieces of work I've ever seen in the entire media. Regardless, a cut is a cut and the reason why I did this anti-EP is for the sake of formality as I don't think Ellen has been E Pd...At all and with this anti-EP, I could touch more regarding Ellen's mitigating traits as I read the prequel book of The Witch's House, "The Diary of Ellen". Without further ado, let's begin the EP shall we:
What's The Work
The Witch's House or Majo no Ine is a popular RPG Horror game that tells us the story about a girl who lost in the woods named Viola who woke up in the woods besides an abandoned house and got trapped in there as a pair of plants prevent her to go out from the forest. It was revealed that the house was the cause of it as it is the home of several creepy supernatural creatures. However, it was revealed that the house itself was actually owned by Viola's best friend, a witch named Ellen. As a result, Viola had no choice to confront Ellen to escape the house once and for all.
Eeeeeeexcept Viola and Ellen are not what they seemed to be...
Who is She/What Has She Done
Why yes, in the game, you actually played as Ellen in Viola's body. Anyways, long story short of Ellen's history before the debacle happened: In the past, Ellen was actually a sickly girl who got neglected by her father and despite her mother's kindness, she decided to abandoned Ellen at the end. This resulted on Ellen getting snapped and killed her parents.
Her life suddenly changed when she met a black cat that she buried when she was sick in which the cat offered her a nice house for a living and could cure her sickness at the end. It was revealed however that the cat itself is actually a demon and after Ellen accepted his offer, her house then began to start burning while Ellen watched it in extreme apathy (I read the manga version so yeah...)
You see, after the demon offered her a nice house to live and her sickness is cured. It soon began her Start of Darkness which resulted on her sacrificing several innocent people in unique ways at her house so that she could feed their souls to the cat demon and his companion. Seemingly showing no remorse when doing so.
Years went by, Ellen wanted to experience a good live where people truly loved her. To that end, Ellen spotted a young girl named Viola who went deep to the woods, ignoring her father's warnings, and befriended her so that she could perform a body switching spell and Ellen promised to Viola that she will use the latter's body for one day.
Except no, this was a lie fabricated by Ellen as we hit one of her most sickening and revolting crimes: You see, Ellen purposefully damaged her own body by cutting her limbs and gouging out her eyes and then perform a body switching spell to make Viola suffered. When Viola screamed and writhed in agony in Ellen's body, as a nice friend she is, Ellen gave her a throat burning medicine so that she could stop screaming. Alas, the witch then attempts to escape the house via Viola's body.
Except, the way out of the house were blocked by Viola in Ellen's body and as a result, Ellen had no choice to confront Viola and kill her once and for all while committing several unnecessary cruelty act in her home such as killing the frog who was nice to her (Don't worry, I can relate to that Pewdiepie and it's such a sad scene to watch) and tried to help her by feeding him into a snake or killing several talking flowers.
When confronting Viola in Ellen's body, she tries to chase Ellen to regain her body back. Unfortunately for poor Viola, she was mistaken by her father as a monster who tried to attack poor little Viola and as a result, she was killed in self-defense. Ellen's reaction? Stabbed her and sadistically gloated to her by saying that she will took all of the things that she love including her father and thus, Ellen got scot-off free at the end while Viola's soul were eaten by the Black Cat Demon at the end...Poor Viola
Heinous Standard
See what I mean when I say that she's one of the nastiest pieces of work that I have ever seen in entire media? Yeah...Ellen utterly annihilates the heinous standard in terms of personal level. Disregarding the sacrifices of countless people in the past, what she had done to Viola is John Wakefield or Griffith's level of fucked up it could easily landed her on this spot. The only candidate that I could think counting is The Black Cat demon actually and sounds like Ellen is an easy keep right? Well, unfortunately, I don't think she counts when I'm going to bring these mitigating factors to dissect for you all:
Freudian Excuse/Mitigating Factors
Alright, so this is where I think why Ellen is not a slamdunk for this trope and I decided to do an Anti-EP to dissect her mitigating factors and Freudian Excuse one by one having reading "The Diary of Ellen" and I'm going to tell you my stance if Ellen can stay or no. Buckle up as this part is going to be the long one:
Alright, so...After reading The Diary of Ellen, I honestly side with Master N here as some of her excuse raises some red flags for me. Let's start with the obvious one: Ellen was actually a sickly girl in the past and were truly neglected by her parents (Her father was the worst offender as despite being alcoholic, he never really had a care towards her well-being and most of the time ignoring her). Okay, so her sickness? It is said that due to what her ancestors had done something horrific in the past, she ended up looking like that.
The second is her abusive and neglectful parents. True, her mother is a nice person and truly cared about her well-being, that is until the moment where she decided to ignore Ellen and tried to live a better live due to the family's poor status. She did said sorry towards Ellen when she started to abandoned her. However, that moment made Ellen snapped as she ended up killing both of her parents anyway after extreme abandonment. This is understandable as when her mother abandoned her? It's done, her life support is no more.
Anyways, sure...You could argue that she became worse after meeting the Black Cat. However, here's the thing though, before she jumped off the slippery slope, she did tried her best to make best friends to keep her company. One incident is when she tried to make a stray boy her own friend until he ended up getting scared and abandoned her due to the sickness coming back to her after getting out from the house. Which leads to another problem for Ellen to stay...
You see, Ellen herself was actually manipulated by the Cat Demon for his own ends. At one point, he used that incident I mentioned above (The one where Ellen tried to befriended a little boy but failed at the end because of her sickness that prevented her to do so) and gave her horrific illusions to keep her under his thumb. And yes, another point is that when he also told Ellen to kill all of the people trespassing through the house so that her illness will be cured.
This of course? Resulted in Ellen's Start of Darkness in which she started killing several innocent people without any flick of remorse and puts herself in Above Good and Evil state. And true, she did this out of her own volition. However, I should say something on this part: Ellen did this so that her illness can be cured and so that she could achieve her ultimate goal: To gain a love that was absent in her live and this is understandable to a certain degree as she was not only extremely got neglected in her lifetime especially from her parents and her friends who discovered her illness doesn't help matters.
And yes, at one point, she said that despite she killed several innocent people without any remorse? It was revealed that she had no enjoyment on killing people much like other people killed a pig. She decided to do that because demons love the taste of human suffering in agony much like Apos from Mnemosyne.
So to whit? I don't think Ellen counts anymore due to the Freudian Excuse that correlates her actions in the present and her getting manipulated by the Black Cat for his own ends doesn't help matters. Any arguments that could refute this claim? Well, I messaged bobg via P Ms and he said this on Ellen's mitigating traits:
"To be honest, I think she could still qualify due to her cases of Redemption Rejection. Once she met that boy after coming to live in the house, she could have forgiven him and accepted his apology after he came to say he was sorry for freaking out earlier and she could have stayed in the house where she wouldn't age or die from her sickness and make more friends. Instead, she pretended to forgive him before killing him and moving on to kill hundreds of people. She was given another chance to stop when she met Viola. She could have refused to do the body swap and stayed friends with her. She didn't. I personally believe her RR combined with her sadism negates any sympathy. That's just me though."
And this one
"Remember that she left Viola with no legs, no eyes, and a burning throat. She also smugly taunted her about it in the prequel. In the game, she mocks the dying Viola and snickers after she is killed by her own father."
So with that, take that as you will if you want her to stay or not and I can understand why you guys truly have a concerns towards her staying especially Master N.
Final Verdict
Honestly, after doing some research by reading Diary of Ellen manga version (The manga is faithful to the novel so no issue here) and looking back at her excuses... I don't think Ellen will make the cut even if bob said otherwise and yes, Ellen's cut is going to be a huge sting on my back and it's not because I used this trope as a Badge of Honor. (Sure, some of the villains that I made for my story are inspired by Ellen but still...) Instead, it's because what she had done to Viola and other animals are so horrific it could easily landed her on this trope. In fact, that ending of the Witch's House is the utter reason why I never wanted to see the game ever again. Regardless, if she got cut, she got cut and I can understand Master N's concerns at the end.
Sorry for the long EP everyone as I tried my best to do so and yes, you could argue that you don't need this type of EP and just say Ellen's a cut: End of story. However, it's fun to do so because Ellen has never been E Pd yet and I'm truly familiar with this game even before I joined this thread given that I watched it via Pewdiepie's walkthrough years ago so that you could see where I'm coming from so yeah...
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Oct 31st 2019 at 3:22:46 AM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
I thought sharks were my friends.
Abstaining on Ellen.
RIP KissAnime.
Gentle Laborer
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Same
Speaking of diaries... I ran into possibly the most confusing redeeming quality I've ever seen. A long time ago I proposed Philip LeMarchand from Clive Barker's Book of the Damned. His chapter is written in the form a diary, and it chronicles his collaboration with the Cenobites by becoming a prolific serial killer with countless victims to his name, using their corpses to create the "puzzle boxes" for the Leviathan. There is also the presence of a tie-in fictional enclyclopedia detailing his life and how he simply disappeared after checking into a hotel, indicating that he may have solved one of his own boxes or given another sacrifice to the Cenobites before escaping from justice, even if the "final" page ends with Philip feeling betrayed by the Cenobites after they seemingly abandoned him. I read the diary and believed it was over when the encyclopedia was introduced as the comic's epilogue, except I was surprised to know that there is actually a single missing page of his diary hidden after the encyclopedia, revealing that Philip wishes to atone himself in the eyes of God to save his soul, which directly contradicts the encyclopedia's narrative that he was an unredeemable bastard even in his final years; this page was ripped and removed from his diary, did he pull out a Redemption Rejection in the end? What the hell happened? I really don't know what to think, but I guess we should cut him, I'm not comfortable with him staying up even if it is because of a small piece of paper that came out of nowhere.
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Oct 31st 2019 at 5:31:18 PM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Drácula, Dreamer, Keziah, Bastion and Michael Myers; changing to ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
on Ethel. Abstain on Ellen.
A 20th Century Boy
to Keziah and Michael Myers. Changing my Ethel vote to abstain upon hearing further information.
I say Ellen should stay. Again, she could have gotten the love she wanted without doing all those atrocities (minus killing her parents). She tries to make friends with a boy. The boy freaks out and runs away upon seeing her illness but comes back later on to apologize for how he reacted and ask to still be friends with her. What does Ellen do? She pretends to forgive him only to kill him and sacrifice his soul to the cat demon. Saying she didn't know any better or thought she had to kill to get the love she wanted is inaccurate. She could have gotten it either from the boy or Viola. She chose not to. In the boy's case, it's because she was too cruel to forgive him. In Viola's case, she simply decided to go ahead with killing her and stealing her life instead of becoming friends with her to get the love she desired. Also, on the subject of Viola, Ellen's statement that she takes no pleasure in killing? Her killing of Viola shows that that is a blatant lie on her part. In the prequel, after she leaves Viola to die in her wounded body, she smugly taunts her. In the game, she mocks Viola, tells her she will steal everything from her when she's gone, and laughs when Viola is killed by her father. Those actions show clear sadism on her part. She can claim she gets no pleasure out of it all she wants, but her smug taunting of Viola and laughing after she's killed by her own father shows this to be a false claim on her part. Also, saying that she was manipulated by the demon? I'm gonna quote the Draco In Leather Pants entry on the YMMV page:
"A lot of fans have a tendency to paint Ellen as someone who's completely innocent, and instead shifting the blame onto either her parents, or the cat demon, or both. While it's easy to argue that her parents were partially responsible for it, the cat demon is a different story; despite being vague and cryptic, the demon didn't really do anything to Ellen except made offers of magic power in exchange for souls, and Ellen willingly accepted the offers. While the book goes into more detail in attempt to make readers feel sorry for her, it also shows her having early signs of sociopathic behavior, before and after she met the demon, such as not flinching nor showing any signs of guilt or regret for murdering hundreds of people, announcing herself to be Above Good and Evil, being maniacally selfish in her end goals, and finally reveling in sadistic glee at Viola's suffering; all of this was her doing, not something of demonic influence."
jjj
Also, Elfen, I can't remember. Was it you or Master N that was planning to do an EP on the demon?
jjj
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
@bobg I recall it was Master N. But he said via P Ms that I'll be the one who will propose him.
Anyways...As for arguments...I don't know what to say. Honestly, some of her mitigating factors come from this chapter especially on the part where Ellen reverts to her sickly form again. And the part where she mentions that she dislikes killing is around Chapter 5-6 of the manga. But I guess you do have a point. Still though, if she stays, I don't mind.
Are you doing the EP later today?
jjj
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Yes. I'll see what I can do at a later time.
The MILF Virus
Keziah, M. Myers. As for Ellen... OK, hearing the argument I'll give a small .
Gentle Laborer
Maintaining my abstain, I know little-to-nothing about the franchise.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
65: Just waiting for MODOK's writeup, and now I guess Bastion's writeup, and then it'll be ready to be locked.
"'Breakfast Cereals' is not a work." ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Dreamer; Keziah (we already have her television incarnation); Bastion (voiced by Don Morrow, who also voiced the recently-approved Professor); Myers.
Abstain on Ellen.
Okay, now I have NO idea what to do about Philip.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Ellen
Philip
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Yes to Dreamer, Keziah, Bastion and, of course, to our good old friend Michael Myers.
Abstaining on Malbert, though leaning yes, and on the other characters I've missed.
Bobg convinced me. Keep Ellen.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Oct 31st 2019 at 12:39:56 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Lizzid people!
Yeah, I'm fine with Ellen staying.
Showtime!
Keep Ellen and to Myers
Cut Phillip...I guess? Man, that's weird
Edited by Libraryseraph on Oct 31st 2019 at 9:38:47 AM
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Micheal and keep Ellen, but cut Philip.
Does anyone mind if I write up that MODOK just to get done.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I just sent him a PM and am waiting for a reply.
Edited by Bullman on Oct 31st 2019 at 7:53:42 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Eh. I say cut Ellen and maybe keep Phillip. But that is weird. More opinions would be nice.
I would also like to thank Lighty and Scraggle for their input as I was working on Keziah Mason.
I looked at Reddit and it seems that the creators of Warhammer 40K say that "there is no canon" within Warhammer 40K Expanded Universe. Does this still means that all Warhammer 40K works share heinous standard?
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Oct 31st 2019 at 3:48:36 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I guess so. That being said, I think all the current keepers (including Kyras) are still keepers, though this DOES make it even easier to justify cutting Cuu, if we hadn't already. I mean, what, a rape and a few murders? That's NOTHING. To qualify, you probably need a few million at a MINIMUM.
Edited by ACW on Oct 31st 2019 at 9:15:42 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Showtime!
Is this approved? (from Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?) It seems short.
- Complete Monster: Brainiac. He brainjacks Luthor in the most horrifying way possible, orchestrates the siege of the Fortress of Solitude, murders Jimmy Olsen, one of Superman's dearest remaining friends, and is completely devoid of anything resembling a conscience.
Yay to another Myers.
RIP KissAnime.