Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I think Abbott got enough votes BTW.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Fair enough.
Edited by ACW on Feb 11th 2023 at 5:06:51 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Speaking of which, when's Devandelin getting a new EP?
Based on the EP by the way, ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Vassiloff. Sorry for being late on that one.
Not the Eye
My writeups (decided to get both of them out).
- Gladiators: Canidia, High priestess of the Anubis, is a scheming fanatic who dreams of reducing humanity to undead slaves of her master. Manipulating the ambitious centurion Catilius, Canidia has him kill prince Prospero and try to kill infant Ali, leading to the death of his father and imprisonment of his mother. Planing to take over the Roman Empire, Canidia has Emperor Hadrian slowly poisoned and schemes with Catilius to have prince Marcus killed. She sends her champion Gutta to assist Catilius in the tournament for the Princess Domithia’s hand. Canidia constantly tries to destroy Ali during his challenges, at one point attempting to poison him using a vision of his mother, eventually causing an earthquake that destroys Rhodes. Disguising herself as Ali’s mother Niobe, Canidia tries to manipulate him into killing Hadrian, before transforming into a Jackal demon and planning to destroy Rome out of spite.
- Plague Muffins: Doctor Malcolm Canoll is a greedy, newly appointed head doctor of the English Plague Doctor Society. Malcolm has all doctors who try to cure the plague or help patients in any way dismissed, replacing them with doctors who give temporary remedies in order to maximise the profit, sending his right-hand Claudia to kill all dismissed doctors who continue trying to help people. Having young Emilie sent to spy on doctor Scilis, Malcolm has her burn down Scilise’s bakery before trying to get Emilie to kill Scilis. Torturing her after she refuses, Malcolm, on the verge of dying from the plague, spitefuly tries to kill Scilis.
Yes to the Magistrate, Troy Hicks, Mercer, Yaibed, and Doctor Despicable.
Anyway here is my EP for Daimon Nandi from Star Trek Priodgy. Priodgy is a Star Trek animated show in a similar style to the Star Wars Clone Wars show. A bunch of enslaved kids find a federation starship, the Protostar, and use it to escape. By episode 6, First Con-tact, we meet one of the parents of these children....
Who is Daimon Nandi? What has she done?
Daimon Nandi is a Ferengi captain and con artist (her crew is only herself and a robot assistant) the adopted mother of the Protostar's teenage captain Dal. Nandi raised Dal and taught him to be a con artist. Nandi ''lost'' Dal and Dal was taken as a slave for the villainous Diviner.
Nandi comes across the Protostar and pretends to be a helpless old woman taking care of sick orphans. Dal sees through this right away and Nandi drops the act. Nandi talks to Dal in private and offers an exchange. She will give Dal a cloaking device and exchange in Dal and his crew will do a job for her, Nandi states she needs the crystal because she is deep in gambling debts with some nasty customers. Nandi has found a planet full of advanced aliens, who never met life from other planets, and who have Remalite Crystals. Nandi wants a Remalite Cyrstal and wants to trade a crystal for some worthless junk.
Nandi and Dal convince the rest of the crew to agree to this, but hologram Janeway disapproves, noting that they are breaking Star Fleet's Prime Directive by interfering with this alien species. Nandi, Dal, and the crew go down and the aliens seem to be attacking them until first officer Gwyn discovers that the aliens use harmonics to communicate and uses her Tricorder to communicate with them. Gwyn deduces that the aliens use harmonics to shape matter on the planet and that they need the crystals to shape matter, which gives Dal second thoughts.
The aliens create a structure and invite the crew in, with the crew meeting the aliens in a room where the crystals are hanging on alien tendrils. Nandi presents the aliens with the junk and asks for a gift in exchange. The aliens then sing a beautiful song, which moves most of the crew. Nandi is unimpressed and just starts stealing the crystals. This results in the aliens being in pain (Zero states as much, sensing their pain with his telepathic abilities), and the planet is consumed by sandstorms. The crew tries to recover the crystals and Nandi pulls out a phaser and tries to blast them. Nandi manages to escape to the planet's surface and heads to her ship. Dal attacks her to get the crystal back and Nandi reveals she sold him into slavery. Nandi also reveals she stole the Protostar's supply of chimerium so she can power the cloaking device, so she never planned to honor her deal. Nandi escapes to her ship and the crew beams Dal back to the Protostar. Dal reveals that he put his combadge on the crystal, beaming it back to the aliens. Janeway chews out the crew for breaking the Prime Directive. Also, Nandi tells the Diviner of the Protostar, selling them out again for a profit.
Is she heinous by the standard of the work?
This is the tricky part. The question is how much harm did Nandi do the aliens? I wouldn't propose her if not for the fact that Zero said the aliens were in pain. I think you can argue that Nandi left the aliens in a state of constant pain and that the aliens need the crystals to function and the aliens could only return to normal if their crystal was returned, which Nandi had no intention of doing. Her also selling Dal into slavery is a nasty bit of cruelty.
She is not trying to destroy the Federation like the Diviner is, but still what she did Dal and the aliens comes off as very cruel.
Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
I don't think so, all of her supposed redeeming qualities are a lie, she never loved Dal and Dal doubts she even has gambling debts.
Ferengi usually has the excuse of having a warped culture that is both extremely sexist and practices a ruthless form of capitalism as an excuse for their actions.
However Ferengis like Quark choose doing the right thing over profit now and again, so I don't think that is a blanket excuse for every bad thing a Ferengi does. Nandi doesn't come off as a victim of sexism, she just seems like a greedy psychopath.
Final Verdict?
She may count, if you think she is heinous enough.
Edited by Overlord on Feb 11th 2023 at 9:01:04 AM
Quite unpredictable
Abstain on Nandi, I'm not sure how much could be chalked up to Alternate Character Interpretation.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Both, since even the gambling debt bit is ambiguous according to the EP. I'm not sure whether I could interpret her as a desperate person doing something highly unethical to survive (and negatively influenced by Ferengi culture) or a purely greedy, evil bastard. Would have to see the work to say for sure.
Is she there when the psychic, Zero, says the crystal aliens are in pain? If not, that probably doesn't count towards her heinousness. For all she knows, she's just stealing some gems.
Edited by carduinal-cyn on Feb 11th 2023 at 9:16:55 AM
"I don't have the power to reverse my destiny. [...] But I'm not going to turn away from my fate anymore." — Kiriya
In terms of her character or the impact of her actions?
Edit: I wouldn't trust anything she says, if she lied about losing Dal rather than selling him into slavery, there is no good reason to assume she is not lying about the gambling debts either, it was clearly a play to gain sympathy, not an actual redeeming quality.
Zero is a telepath, Zero could use their abilities to sense the aliens were in pain. Nandi could hear Zero, she knows taking the crystals causes them pain, she doesn't care.
Edited by Overlord on Feb 11th 2023 at 9:30:15 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Is Malcolm at the Drafts?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Quite unpredictable
The slavery thing is awful for sure, I think I might have skimmed over that because I figured leaving the aliens in a perpetual state of pain is just as evil, if not worse. I suppose what would tip me over the edge is how she compares to other villains in heinousness. And, again, whether she knows about what she's doing to them and doesn't care.
Depending on how dark this series gets, I can easily see her landing Hate Sink, but I don't know about CM yet.
"I don't have the power to reverse my destiny. [...] But I'm not going to turn away from my fate anymore." — Kiriya
Not the Eye
No, only Canidia. Malcolm is still in vote time, but since he has been getting only upvotes figured to just get both of writeups out.
Gonna lean, yes to Nandi.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Ignore for now
Nandi
Edited by WetFlannels on Feb 11th 2023 at 5:30:28 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Alright apologise for the double post, the EP copied and pasted incorrectly.
After we had discussed Babidi on the Cleanup thread, we decided that Bibidi was worth a relook. Thanks Snowy for giving feedback prior to me posting this. Coincidentally my first Anime EP.
What is the work?
Dragon Ball is one of the most popular anime franchises ever made. Following the journey of Son Goku and his allies against numerous foes of both a planetary and universal threat, it eventually reaches the "Majin Buu Arc" where the titular entity is revived which the sadistic wizard Babidi tries to use him to wage destruction on the planet but he wasn't the first sadistic small wizard to try and use Buu for a twisted agenda. 5 million years ago the wizard called Bibidi also attempted to use Buu and he's our candidate for today.
Who is Bibidi and what has he done?
Bibidi is a short green wizard who releases the entity Buu from his slumber to try and take over the universe. After Buu destroys Planet Alpha, almost taking Bibidi with it, Bibidi tries to get the abomination under his control, claiming he's it's father. From there, Bibidi would have Buu ravage planets in his quest for universal domination.
In his quest of conquest, Bibidi would also have Buu wipe out the Supreme Kais, with the West, North and South ones murdered. When Buu absorbs one of the Kais, he turns into the simple minded, Fat Buu which allowed Bibidi to reign a tighter leash on the abomination with his acts of conquest.
If Buu is compliant with his planetary attacks, Bibidi would reward him with candy, if he disobeys him, Buu would be sealed within a magical orb to keep him in check as punishment. Bibidi meets his end attempting to release Buu on Earth before the Supreme Kai on the planet kills him, leaving Buu trapped within the orb.
Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Nada for the Freudian Excuse.
Now him rewarding Buu? Buu's in a childish state when Bibidi bribes him so it's just Pragmatic Villainy to keep the entity in check and if he disobeys, he throws him into the orb as punishment. He plays himself off as Buu's father but he just uses that cover to protect himself from the entity, no care for him.
Despite Bibidi being dead, his doppelganger "son" Babidi later appears to try and release Buu for his own twisted agenda. They're treated as separate entities though so no agency concerns.
Now if Bibidi does get voted up, it'll have to be noted that he's anime exclusive since in the manga he's more or less completely off screen whereas in the anime he has actual screetime in the flashback but there's no personality shift or change between the two, just on screen presence.
Heinous Standard?
Multiple planets wiped out with the intent of universal domination and consdiering he's just some fuck off wizard who's resources comes from Buu while he himself is lacking otherwise I'd say he's fine on those terms.
Final Verdict?
Your callnote
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
to Bibidi
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Wiping out multiple planets seems like enough...I think. DB's standard is so jacked I'm not ENTIRELY sure...though OTOH, there are, what, several DBZ villains, and the only current keepers are Frieza, Cell, Babidi and Buu? Sure, I'll give a tentative yes (if only because "Frieza-Cell-Babidi-Buu" doesn't have the same ring ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
).
Edited by ACW on Feb 11th 2023 at 1:04:08 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Cooler is also kept from the non-canon movie.
Super, within the same continuity, has Frieza separated for unique crimes, and then there's Zamasu and Moro.
Nobody in the first Dragon Ball keeps any longer due to the crimes being so high since DBZ and all.
The games etc. have their own stuff, but yeah. I don't know if anyone was ever proposed from GT or was cut later(which while non-canon, is a continuity of regular Z, as in ignoring Super).
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, I think as long as destroying multiple planets isn't TOO common, then Bibidi's good.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Quite unpredictable
Unrelated, but here's my writeup of Vassiloff. (Edit: Let me know if I need to clean it up or trim any unnecessary blue links.)
- "The Jeopardy Room": Commissar Vassiloff is a cruel assassin whose job is to hunt down and kill defectors from the Soviet Union. With his latest target, Major Ivan Kuchenko, in sniper range, Vassiloff refuses to have him merely shot. Instead, he decides to give Kuchenko "the death of an artist". To that end, he forces Kuchenko into a Deadly Game where he must find and defuse a bomb hidden in his hotel room under a three-hour time limit. Vassiloff delights in watching his victim suffer a nervous breakdown as time runs out, and continues to leave him alive even as he pleads, screaming, to be shot. With a Complexity Addiction that defies all logic, Vassiloff cements himself as one of the most sadistic characters on the show, having killed 800 people in similar ways purely to satisfy his boredom.
Edited by carduinal-cyn on Feb 11th 2023 at 10:15:03 AM
"I don't have the power to reverse my destiny. [...] But I'm not going to turn away from my fate anymore." — Kiriya
I'm gonna Bibidi, but do we know roughly how many planets he had Buu destroy? By the time of the Saiyan Saga, characters CTRL + ALT + DEL-ing entire planets is child's play and even supposedly minor villains can do it.
Edited by Arawn999 on Feb 11th 2023 at 10:18:40 AM
The Emperor of Evil!
Bibidi
Now the trio is finally together, Bibidi, Babidi and Super Buu
Quite unpredictable
Should the Vassiloff writeup go on the main Drafts page or the Live Action TV (P to Z) sandbox?
(Edit: done, thank you!)
Edited by carduinal-cyn on Feb 11th 2023 at 10:48:56 AM
"I don't have the power to reverse my destiny. [...] But I'm not going to turn away from my fate anymore." — Kiriya
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Drafts please. I'll take care of the Sandbox stuff.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Tentative to Bibidi. Man, the heinous standards in DB alone is so screwed up.
Tentative to Bibidi
The Ultimate Lifeform
Bibidi! Man, Cinderella should do her best to avoid these spellweavers!
Not the Eye
Bibidi. And now trio is complete
Later today I'll have a candidate written by Lighty to discuss...following that I've got some film candidates to discuss (one by Rian Johnson, and another being a Muppets production, of all things), then a continuation of mine and Scrags' Wizard of Oz candidates.
Edited by Ravok on Feb 11th 2023 at 1:53:49 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!