Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The way you described it sound like Nicky didn't mind sleeping with his Aunt, when on the page depicting it he was clearly crying and disgusted.
Just to have a discussion and everybody could have the context, here are some pages from Nicky's flashbacks:
Here
◊ is the page, that confirms that his aunt was the one, who masterminded the massacre and convinced Nicky to do it.
Here
◊ is the page, which depicts Nicky being raped by his aunt, to showcase how it was portrayed and how it possibly affected him. And here
◊ is the page of Nicky killing the aunt, since it might provide some context on how it affected him.
And here
◊ is the page, that implies that Aunt Mo was the one, who was pushing Nicky to do violent murders, at least until he killed her.
I'm not aruguing to cut him, just want to bring this up and see if it matters and affects his status as of current time, since a lot of revisiting has been done lately.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jan 2nd 2024 at 7:34:46 PM
Not the Eye
I think I am gonna abstain on Nicky. His aunt pushing him to murders dosen’t seem mitigating at all with how willing he is to jump into it, but him crying as he has sex with her gives me serious pause.
Edited by EmperorGeode on Jan 2nd 2024 at 8:29:27 AM
I didn't imply it didn't bother him but I will admit I forgot about the panel of him crying. I... don't know, he becomes something utterly terrible and while she might be the brains, he's still acting like a Psycho for Hire under her as a kid. It's a tough one because I do think he would have turned out the same way regardless and his behaviour supports that but that bit with him sobbing as a kid being abused gives me pause as well.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
FWIW, I think I lean cut in all three Slavers.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I'll abstain on both Tiberiu and Nicky for the time being.
Personally I will edge on keeping Nicky thinking it through but it's bluntly a pretty gross fucking villain backstory so I'd rather leave it there and move on, I'll let the votes fall where they may.
Lizzid people!
Honestly fine with Nicky staying.
Woagh
I'll just, er, abstain on Nicky, but with 43's points i'm cool with flipping to a keep on Tiberiu if it's just a bloodthirsty quip on his part.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
To make myself clear on cut votes, i lean to keep Tiberiu, regarding Nicky, i could go either way, so i'm basically in abstain here, i just decided to bring the pages up, so that everyone could have the full context about his backstory, since it would help the discussion and clear up some stuff about him.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jan 2nd 2024 at 8:17:22 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Nah, it's good to have all the information.
And even if I disagree with the results, I'm glad it'll be settled.
Though the other two Slavers and Mickey were consensus cuts, right?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yes. Those three were pretty much agreed by almost everybody to be cut.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jan 2nd 2024 at 8:20:25 PM
Ok, I just want to give my opinion. I'm personaly abstaining on Tiberiu but I think Nicky keeps from what I'm seeing. He was sexually abused by his aunt, but before that he was already a psycho who killed his family under her orders and sadistically smiled when he killed his father. His aunt may have told him to do so but there is no confirmation that she was already abusing him before that, and he willingly killed and hurt others and felt sadistic joy at doing so. Because of that, I think it shows that while the sexual abuse may have affected him, Nicky was already a psycho monster before that and thus it's not mitigating.
The Draftsman of Doom
Unsure on Nicky.
Feels good, don't it?
Gonna vouch we table Nicky for a bit... there's going to be a much bigger villain with a fainter backstory of the same ilk for rediscussion soon I think will be useful for establish precedent.
I was going to say more but I would agree with cutting Nicky. His aunt clearly warped him far beyond what he would have become otherwise.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'm fine tabling Nicky.
Though I'm officially voting "Cut" on Tiberiu as well as the other Slavers.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Anyway unrelated but one slight change to Despondeo Hellblazer: Rise and Fall
- Complete Monster: The demon Despondeo was once a weak demon of anguish who fed off so much despair and torture that he attempted to overthrow even Lucifer himself. Bested by the Devil, Despondeo escaped into the corpse of a childhood friend of John Constantine, sowing more anguish and pain until he stole the Devil's wings. Beginning a plan to rise even further, Despondeo begins murdering countless wealthy people and even other innocents, eventually possessing John himself after going on a killing spree in downtown London.
- Changed: Complete Monster: The demon Despondeo was once a weak demon of anguish who fed off so much despair and torture that he attempted to overthrow even Lucifer himself. Bested by the Devil, Despondeo escaped into the corpse of a childhood friend of John Constantine, sowing more anguish and pain until he stole the Devil's wings. Despondeo keeps his hosts father Mr Henderson in line by repeatedly threatening to mutilate his son's body and make him watch. Beginning a plan to rise even further, Despondeo begins murdering countless wealthy people and even other innocents, eventually possessing John himself after going on a killing spree in downtown London.
Collector of Worlds
EDIT: This was me saying to cut Vecna but I was a bit late.
Edited by MemeMaster245 on Jan 2nd 2024 at 8:19:12 PM
I will claim what is rightfully mine, and rebuild the Kryptonian Empire.
Does anyone know the real reason why the OG Sephiroth doesn't count? Searching "Complete Monster Sephiroth" only yields a result where Klavice and Lighty were like "no, just no" to him. I'm guessing because he lacks agency but I dunno.
Edited by Mr-ex777 on Jan 3rd 2024 at 4:38:13 AM
Goku Black
OG sephy has too solid a Freudian Excuse of being his dad's lab rat.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Barb / Temporary Kylo
I am a keep on Nicky and I think Tiberiu now
The First man
RIP Toriyama
Gonna say table Nicky for the moment, fine with keeping Tiberiu I think.
I do have a pretty rock-solid cut of my own to make:
- Shadow Man, by Cody McFadyen:
- Peter Hillstead, known better as "Jack Jr.", believes himself to be a descendant of Jack the Ripper, and seeks to immortalize himself in history as even worse than his ancestor. Trained to torture and kill at a young age by his monstrous father, Jack Jr. gleefully assisted his dad in his crimes before murdering the man for being "inadequate" and striking out as his own mass murderer and rapist. Regularly manipulating people into murdering others for him, Jack Jr. always betrays and kills his acolytes when he grows tired of them. Declaring FBI agent Smoky Barrett as his new nemesis, Jack Jr. masterminds the deaths of Barrett's husband and young daughter, and goes on to torture and rape Barrett's childhood friend to death while forcing her 10-year-old daughter Bonnie to watch. Jack Jr. then ties Bonnie to the eviscerated corpse of her mother and leaves her there for 3 days, the resulting trauma causing the girl to become mute. Jack Jr. then begins tormenting members of Barrett's task force by digging up and defiling the corpse of one agent's sister and chopping off the legs of another agent's dog. When his identity is revealed, Jack Jr. kidnaps one of Barrett's friends, viciously tortures her, then tries to slash Bonnie's throat open while Barrett watches.
- Keith Hillstead is the father of Jack Jr., and is the one responsible for starting his path of destruction. As a young man, Keith believed himself to be a descendant of Jack the Ripper, and murdered his parents for trying to hide it from him. After seducing a young woman into becoming his wife, Keith spent weeks torturing and raping her until she gave birth to a son, who he then began to teach how to torture and kill. Claiming close to 100 victims over the years, Keith photographed the tortures, rapes, and deaths of his victims and kept them in an album. When his wife attempted to murder him, Keith violently raped and pummelled her, before trying to slit her throat. With a polite and calm exterior masking his true depravity, Keith Hillstead stood out as monstrous even with his limited appearances.
Keith is fine, but Jack Jr. needs to go. I fought hard for him many years ago and he's got one of the nastiest crimes I've ever seen but he's got a vile Freudian Excuse of being raised by an abusive father to be a murderer before killing said father to save his mother. Jack further left home afterwards, gave his mother a kiss on the cheek, and never returned to bother her again. By the present he never even mentions his mom, but the backstory makes it clear that he valued her and was severely fucked up by Keith's abuse. The police flatout say Jack "never stood a chance" with a father like Keith. Between a FE like that and apparent care for his mother, snip-snip.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Cut Jack
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Not the Eye
Cut Jacj. Jr
Mo's largely a Predecessor Villain... she encouraged Nicky to kill his immediate family and frame his uncle so he could take power over the family while she ruled from the shadows. When he becomes a teenager she starts sleeping with him until Nicky gets tired of it and kills her. It's something I could see as mitigating but the way Nicky is framed largely comes across as a psychopath angry someone thought they could have power over him.