Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Showtime!
Cut Taylor
Raikou, you can run the quotes right through the locked pages thread, but it might be best to bring them up here first. Reduces work for everyone if they aren't good enough
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
An Eldritch Troper
I would like to propose a couple of cuts:
- Circle of Fear (originally titled Ghost Story): Robert Cameron's dark half, from "Alter-Ego", is the sociopathic and highly manipulative imaginary double of a young boy who becomes real. Originally imagined by Robert as a chess partner while he's stuck at home with a broken leg, the double quickly gains independence and starts going to school in Robert's place. Deciding that he dislikes Robert's teacher, he begins to antagonize her, but always makes sure to arrange things to make it look like she's antagonizing him instead. Intentionally making her paranoid, he causes her to lash out at him, getting her fired. He then shows up at her house and causes her to trip and fall onto her gardening shears, killing her. His presence causes the real Robert to become weaker, and he ultimately intends to sap his life energy and replace him. He brags that no one, not even the boy's parents, will realize what has happened. Additionally, he kills several of Robert's pets seemingly for no other reason than to torment him.
So, the double torments and kills one person, then tries to do the same to another person? I don't think he is bad enough to qualify for this trope, even with the added body count of a few animals.
- 90210: Douglas Atherton is a wanted rapist from England. He comes to America, renames himself Miles Cannon, and becomes a teacher to find new victims. At the end of Season 2 he raped Naomi Clark, even telling her that because she lied about him sexually harassing her earlier, no one would believe her about her rape. After he is found out, he flees his apartment, only to confront Naomi later on and threaten her with a knife.
The information I've researched on Miles/Douglas isn't very comprehensive, but all I got out of it was that he rapes Naomi, tries to sexually assault Silver and holds both of them hostage. It's mentioned he has a past history of sex crimes, but it's not given much detail and he isn't indicated to be a Serial Rapist despite it being potholed to 'Douglas Atherton'. So, he doesn't come across as heinous enough and could potentially be cut.
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
The double could maybe get cut; unsure on Atherton/Cannon.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Draftsman of Doom
The dark half seems kind of tame, TBH. Especially compared to the likes of Henry Evans.
Unsure on Doug.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jan 13th 2023 at 9:45:28 AM
Feels good, don't it?
question: how canon is Flower of Carnage? It looks like there're mitigting factors for Jagi.
Edited by Silverblade2 on Jan 13th 2023 at 4:09:42 PM
It's not. The FOTNS gaidens and side stuff varies all over the place and Buronson and Hara weren't involved with that one in any major capacity. The whole thing reads like bad fanfic Jagi would write about himself and straight up contradicts other sources.
Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 13th 2023 at 7:13:57 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Regarding Doug, do we get a few names, or anything to establish a pattern other than 2 targets onscreen?
Do any of his past victims/survivors get name-dropped, or showcased?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Admittedly, I don't know what the bar is for how bad a villain's deeds have to be for soap operas.
I do remember when I got the Pulp Fiction guys approved, in addition to capturing 2 guys with the intention of tag-team raping them both, succeeding once onscreen, they also show a previous victim who has been kept for an extended period of time, and mention yet another victim by name.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jan 13th 2023 at 11:25:53 AM
Feels good, don't it?
Not the Eye
Unsure on double and rapist. 2 may be enough for the patern.
Edited by EmperorGeode on Jan 13th 2023 at 8:17:01 AM
Professor Gigachad
Cut the Dark Half. I was considering bringing up Doug as well but I wasn't fully sure on if he had enough of a pattern or not.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Cut the dark half. One murder and one attempted murder are not enough to pass baseline and the entry seems to be bloated with every small thing he does just to make him look more heinous.
Unsure on Doug because 2 rape victims wouldn't be enough on its own, but they might be enough to establish a pattern.
Edited by WatTambor on Jan 13th 2023 at 7:38:09 PM
RIP Toriyama
Cut the Dark Half and leaning the same on Doug tbh
So I'm not sure how we handle this, I know on the Wiki Talk thread it was discussed letting entries be a bit more loosey-goosey and let people sometimes edit things on the YMMV, but I don't know if this is such a case. Someone added several Creator/ (actor name) blue links into YMMV.The Streets Of San Francisco entries to specify actors playing the killers/their victims. Are these Creator links worth removing as we would have in the past, or is this kind of YMMV editing something we're ok with now?
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Personally—and only speaking for myself here—I say remove and send a gentle PM to the troper.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Moron
I’m pretty sure Creator pages aren’t supposed to be linked like that in the first place, so I think we’re okay to cut and PM the troper
Bye
Cut the dark half and Doug
Waiting for more info on Taylor
Showtime!
Yeah, those are sinkholes that wouldn't fly anywhere on the wiki. Cut them
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
RIP Toriyama
Done and done. Thanks y'all!
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
I’ll say cut Taylor.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
BTW, I noticed something that needs to be corrected in one of the entries from Tolkien's Legendarium. The name "Agandaur" from War in the North should be changed to "Agandaûr" because that's how it's written in the actual game.
Also, his name is written like that almost everywhere else on the game's pages (probably because the site doesn't recognize this specific symbol, gives bugs and displays it incorrectly), so I will fix those as well.
You need to write the letter "û" by stringing the following symbols together: & u c i r c ;
Thanks
Edited by WatTambor on Jan 13th 2023 at 9:37:52 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Requested, and fixed on the YMMV page for CM.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Cut Taylor
Not the Eye
One I am kinda unsure about.
- Return of the Jedi non-canon novelization, by James Kahn: Moff Tiann Jerjerrod is portrayed as an arrogant, self-important Sociopathic Soldier who joined the military for the violence. Jerjerrod saw the Rebel Alliance as something smaller and weaker than himself that he could bully with impunity. As commanding officer of the second Death Star, Jerjerrod was an enthusiastic participant in Emperor Palpatine's plan to exterminate the Rebels, viewing it as an exercise in total annihilation; his one regret was that the end of the Rebellion would mean the end of the war he loved. When the Emperor and Darth Vader were slain, Jerjerrod, enraged at the Rebels for fighting back, ordered Death Star II to obliterate Endor, intending to butcher not only the Rebels and the Ewoks, but his own men, and every other sapient lifeform on the moon, out of a desire "to incinerate something green and living, gratuitously, meanly, toward no end but that of wanton destruction. A small act, but deliciously satisfying." A petty, sadistic man with a big gun, Jerjerrod was among the cruelest and most vindictive officers the Imperial Navy had to offer.
going by the EP he only has 3 scenes in the novel and worst he tries does is ordering death star to fire on Endor while it is already crumbling. And even that was on the orders from the emperor, granted it is make clear it is more out of spite than loyalti. Still he does have to compete with Tarkin or least his novel version, don’t know by what canon we are going (as in movies or previus novelizations).
While he is clearly huge psycho I am not it is enought to go “well yes he is following orders but he is super sadistic about”.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
I think it might be just enough personally.
The First man
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So is Mick Taylor a cut?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I really don't see much to the guy beyond a super minor villain with a squeaking standout crime. Not really attached to what happens there.
Also would like to request a rewrite/discussion:
- Asian Saga: Most of the books heavily feature a Gray-and-Gray Morality, and the majority of the antagonists are well rounded and semi-sympathetic, but Gorth from Tai-Pan is one of the exceptions, being a brutal sexual sadist who, unlike his father, has no sense of honour whatsoever. Gorth enjoys hurting or assaulting others and clearly enjoys their pain. In order to hurt his enemy of the Struan family, he tries arranging for his son to be drugged and bedded by a prostitute with syphilis which was completely incurable in those days and a very, very horrible way to go.
We've got tons of vague references to nastiness and then it finally gets to him once having a person infected with syphilis. That makes him an asshole but if he stays there's gotta be more to the story here. Lighty I think you've read?
Hmm just gonna abstain on Mick for the time being, this seems the sort of case that needs thorough verification.
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.