The Web Original namespace -- is it necessary?

Jenny Everywhere does not belong in Useful Notes nor does she belong in Just for Fun. She is a deliberately created work of fiction with a central canon and a bunch of other stories using her. This is a tropeable piece of fiction exactly as much as fairy tales or myths.

If you dont currently have a namespace that fits her, thats a problem with the wiki, not a reason to force the work into a medium it doesnt fit.

(This is why i was in favor of keeping a space for weird or miscellaneous works, btw, but Im not arguring that further)

I also mentioned this earlier but it didnt get dicussed— I strongly favor creating a catagory for "community created works". Each individual piece of media is a deliberate artistic creation, and therefore tropeable, but theyre way too small to trope on its own page, and they are intended by the creators to be viewed/consumed in connection with all the other works in the community. So it makes the most sense to trope them all together, with the understanding that it's actually troping a bunch of tiny individual works

The issue with Jenny Everywhere is that she's a public domain character literally anyone can use. She's just a character with no real defined anything, because people are allowed to use her however they see fit. That's not conducive to a proper work page, because we can't trope every version of her that exists as if they're all the same story.

If there is a central canon we can trope that specific canon as a single story. What we can't do is lump that version with every other Jenny Everywhere story as if they're the same story.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 21st 2022 at 10:51:05 AM

Then how are we able to trope Baba Yaga, or the characters of Classical Mythology?

Edited by Tremmor19 on Nov 21st 2022 at 11:14:17 AM

Should we be?

Baba's in the wrong namespace (should be Myth/ at best) and I'm also not convinced that any individual characters qualify as "works", rather than a recurring fictional character similar to, say, Santa Claus (who you'll notice is marked as a trope, not a work).

Mythology is different. We're not troping the specific characters themselves as their own works (hence why it's Myth.Classical Mythology and not Myth.Zeus), we're troping the stories passed down through history, which may differ but are still consistent enough to be considered a "canon".

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 21st 2022 at 11:17:16 AM

Half the page for Santa Claus is listing tropes that apply to him, just in the description rather than in a list. The mythical character pages seem to be in largely fine shape, imo, and we should be trying to keep other things in that style. Id actually be happy with a Myth.Santa Claus page

Edited by Tremmor19 on Nov 21st 2022 at 11:23:03 AM

I added onto my last example because you've added onto yours, just fyi

sorry, i need to figure out how to finish my thoughts the first time instead of editing them 50 times lol

Edited by Tremmor19 on Nov 21st 2022 at 11:19:43 AM

Mythology characters have tropes because there exist documented works describing them, so they are effectively one Myth/ work, unrelated to any modern interpretations.

Baba Yaga is a misplaced part of Russian Mythology and Tales.

We treat Santa Claus as an archetype trope and not as a character.

But it's not related to Web Original topic so I'm stepping down.

Edited by Amonimus on Nov 21st 2022 at 7:26:53 PM

The original argument is whether or not WebOriginal.Jenny Everywhere should be moved to a work namespace or UN / JFF.

To me sounds closer to UN than to JFF.

That's fair— the myth argument is probably a little off topic

I primarily want to be able to create pages for decentralized cooperative fiction. functioning basically like a creator/ page, where smaller works without their own pages are troped together, but in this case the creator is the self identified community of artists and writers depicting the story/universe/character set

That could be off topic as well, i suppose. where would I go to propose something like that?

Edited by Tremmor19 on Nov 21st 2022 at 11:38:38 AM

That's a common issue with Creepypasta works and M.U.G.E.N cleanup and I personally operate on is there "the first" story others are basing of or not.

May warrant own thread.

Edited by Amonimus on Nov 21st 2022 at 7:40:21 PM

Speaking of "decentralized cooperative fiction", we were discussing the same issue with meme pages such as LOLCats. Other memes such as Navy Seal Copypasta go on JFF/

I think we need a new namespace for such things, really. Putting them under a header titled "just for fun" sounds very wrong, and folks need to stop misusing that namespace as a dumping ground, anyway.

the page for Navy Seal Copypasta doesnt seem to be JFF, imo. Its a pretty silly work, but it is still a piece of creative fiction, and the trope page is actually written mostly correctly, describing actual tropes present in the work (compare pages like The Ugly Barnacle, where the tropes are shoehorned in as a joke). Its not even cooperative meme fiction, all of the tropes in tge description are from the original, non-altered version. That one should just be in Literature, maybe.

Edited by Tremmor19 on Nov 22nd 2022 at 7:43:06 AM

Funnily enough, same applies to this namespace.

I'll be done with my studies in a few days. I still need to move a bunch of pages to their correct namespaces.

The Navy Seal page tropes only the original version, so Literature/ it is.

At this point, we might need a first crowner to decide whether these kinds of works should even be allowed on the wiki.

I don't see why not. They are works of fiction, the issue is that they just aren't attributed to any particular creator.

Another issue if they are "a work" or a collection of works on the same theme.

I feel like its a bit of a loss that we dont have a good way to trope tiny works (like a single page fic or a piece of art). They are fiction and they have tropes, but currently unless theyre part of a curated/published collection or from an artist who has their own creator page, theres no where to put them. Thats the main reason im in favor of allowing this type of "collective work" page— because its a good way to organize a page for tiny works: in this case, organized via self-identification as part of the project

Edited by Tremmor19 on Dec 14th 2022 at 5:11:34 AM

I mean, those things could theoretically have trope pages if they contain at least three tropes. Just see JustForFun.The Ugly Barnacle for reference, or Literature.Hemingways Six Word Story for something more serious. The only reason more of these pages don't exist is because people either struggle to find enough tropes, or simply prefer to collect them on a broader creator page.

They could, yea, but practically they almost never get made, and they dont get crosswicked/visited when they are (ive made a dozen fanfic pages and im the only editor on almost all of them lol). I think most people wpuld be more likely to use a single page

I guess it's really a Lumper / Splitter philosophy. Either way, I don't see a problem as long as the works are tropeworthy, the pages are well made, and that if they're lumped together, they're not lumped together arbitrarily.

They didn't get made because no-one bothered making them yet. See This Is a Wiki.