Huh? I was talking about what Anomius said? Now I'm confused?

The crowner is unclear as noted on points.

Edit:

@ Sync's post: Ah I understand. Tbh I think it was the wording of the crowned being really unclear that was putting me and others off of what D actually suggests?

Edited by miraculous on Aug 16th 2022 at 11:49:03 AM

I'll admit that I

1. Have went off-topic by discussing adaptation work pages in every namespace when the discussion should have been about LN example placement on trope pages, and await until that topic is settled.
2. May not be making my thoughts clear because phrasing is one issue I'm occasionally reminded of, and it's possible we've been referring to different things.
3. Have not learned my lesson from another Wiki Talk thread and became preachy about a vision I've considered obvious when it's clear there wouldn't be a discussion if it was.

I'm only going off of what I assumed has been a standard practice for years (current option D) and was supporting only to make it formalized for the sake of consistency, and believe it wouldn't be a major change. Even if it wasn't the norm, I don't think I'm switching.

I'd like to disregard my previous posts because it's getting clear I and others have lost track of what's being discussed due to so many questions not immediatelly relevant to the crowner and I should stop treating arguments I'm not getting as invitations to chat.

I think I was replying mainly to your (Miraculous's) posts at the top of the previous page. I possibly misunderstood you.

Also, wow, what the heck happened to the crowner in the last five hours? Suddenly D is way ahead.

Edited by StarSword on Aug 16th 2022 at 5:37:07 AM

Because Sync cleared up the confusion so people know what exactly it is?

I didn't find the crowner options to be confusing so I thought people just disagreed at first. I changed trope pages to trope example lists on the crowner options. Not sure if that helps.

Posting this comment to make public that I changed my vote to support D and oppose B (my previous choice). I'm still leaving the other options untouched.

Overall approving of the merger, but as a point of order, I think there was a missing detail from the discussion.

The Japanese separate Light Novels from classic novels. Not because of illustration, but because they use a different style of writing. The equivalent is if all Western books had been in a specific font up until a few decades ago when the original early-reader books (like See Spot Run or Little Golden Books) were made with a different alphabet and font. It's a concept that the Western world doesn't really do, another possible comparison being illuminated manuscripts and printing presses, except printing presses have almost entirely eliminated the creation of manuscripts and Light Novels are nowhere near close to doing that.

It's a significant format deviation, but I do prefer cutting down on those distinctions.

^ That's was mentioned by a few people actually but I don't think it got brought up as much as the illustrations point did.

I mean, it still doesn't strike me as a relevant difference when we already don't separate between "Books made in this language" and "books made in this other language", so I don't see why I'd separate one western book from another even if it had a "different alphabet"; it's just a book in a different language, but it's still a book.

This is why I can't see the distinctions people are talking about. None of these changes actually alter what the medium is, they just alter the way the books are marketed.

Nor we separate Picture Books, Children's Literature, Middle Grade Literature, Young Adult Literature.

That is definitely true and I agree LNs are another form of literature, but then I have to ask why we also separate Eastern and Western Animation, or Comic Books and Manga/Manhua/Manhwa (which are basically Eastern Comic Books). I think someone said it was grandfathered in, but so was the Literature/Light Novel split. If it is because both are culturally different enough in some way, then why do we not have separate folders for Eastern and Western Literature?

General answer: because nobody have started a serious thread regarding Animation Animation and Comic Books categorization yet. I have my opinions, but I shall not go on about them here.

Additionally those namespaces don't also have severe organizational problems, whereas this conversation began because Light Novel is a confusing mess.

No, that's not the difference. It is still the same spoken language, just with a different alphabet. It doesn't use a different set of grammar or idiomatic expressions.

Besides, I'm merely describing why I wasn't pushing for the merger. I prefer using media categories to separate length-based formats. I would be okay with splitting the Literature category into "less than 25,000 word" and "more than 25,000 word".

However, that is generally irrelevant for the light novels which tend to have articles on the wiki, because they are generally novel-length.

I mean... I guess it's hard from an American perspective because there's no "different English alphabets". It would always be a different language in that hypothetical because of that.

But yeah, it's sort of moot anyway.

For some reason I'm now imagining somebody trying to write a story in English using the Phoenician alphabet ours descended from.

Constrained Writing, sounds sorta A Void, or Thing Explainer where a restricted character / word set is used.

What crazysamaritan is describing is something that is very specific to Japanese, since it has three different sets of characters - hiragana, katakana, and Chinese characters. The definition of a light novel is one that uses fewer Chinese characters, favouring kana instead, because the target audience will be less familiar with the Chinese characters.

No other written language has this issue. Korean kind of had it for a while, but it's been centuries since that language was written with anything other than hangul. Mongolian, Romanian, Cherokee, and Egyptian are written with multiple alphabets, but never at the same time. Turkish is currently on its third writing system, but at no point would anyone ever combine Armenian, Arabic, and Roman letters in the same piece of writing. Japanese is unique in that all three writing systems are commonly used in the same text.

Thus, if the avoidance of Chinese characters is what defines light novels, then that makes them a specific type of literature, but literature nonetheless.

(I also have some opinions about the various comic-related namespaces, but that is off-topic).

Correction: By Chinese characters, you mean Kanji.

Are kanji (JP) and hanzi (CN) the same thing? I'm confused about that.

First link I found: https://eastasiastudent.net/regional/hanzi-and-kanji/

Chinese and Polish sort of have the same issue: there's a split between the "traditional" and "simplified" writing systems in Mandarin (IIRC it was the Chinese Communist Party that introduced the latter), and Polish and I think Czech have been written with both the Cyrillic and English alphabets (the Poles switched to the latter after the '89 revolution mostly to spite the Russians). But yeah, Japanese is the only language I'm aware of where authors routinely use three different writing systems simultaneously. In casual writing, kanji tend to be used for proper names, while hiragana are used to spell Japanese words (or as definers for kanji and katakana) and katakana are used to spell foreign words.

This has been スタルソルヅ, thank you for reading lol

Edited by StarSword on Aug 18th 2022 at 12:15:24 PM

Going to start moving A-C of the LN pages on Light Novels.

Also a reminder of A: "Upvote for yes. Downvote to place them in the Literature folder." Which I take is a 3.5:1 towards merging Light Novels folder with Literature if present.

Edited by Amonimus on Aug 19th 2022 at 3:59:36 PM