To-do list:
- Spiritual Successor is now YMMV and primarily refers to works that are perceived to be similar to previous works, regardless of creator intention.
In addition, Spiritual Adaptation has been merged with Spiritual Successor while works that objectively share creators are now covered by the Trivia item Creator-Driven Successor, so examples of Spiritual Adaptation (including on-page examples, which have been moved to Sandbox.Spiritual Adaptation until they're moved to Spiritual Successor's on-page example list) need to be moved to Spiritual Successor, while examples of Spiritual Successor that are known to share creators need to be moved to Creator-Driven Successor.
Example cleanup is being tracked using the Spiritual Successor Wick Cleaning sandbox.
In my Spiritual Successor Wick Check, I looked at 90 tropes, and only 2 of them were written in a way that could be classified as "objective". The rest were based on opinion, or described works that were in some way linked to the original...or didn't explain anything at all. There were a lot of those. Here's the quick results:
- Subjective: 19/90 or ~21%
- Objective: 2/90 or ~2%
- Same creators/continuity/etc: 29/90 or ~32%
- ZCE: 39/90 or ~43%
So, to recap: 19 of the 90 wicks checked were in some way based on audience opinion. 29 of them were works that probably could be considered derivatives of the original, thanks to having the same characters, creators, or in some way sharing a continuity. 39 wicks were classified as ZCE, meaning they never described why the connection existed or what it even was, or if it was intentional or not. That leaves only 2 wicks that could be described as "works objectively meant to take inspiration from another" without being directly related.
So, when I made the wick check, I thought it would result in me saying "Shunt this to YMMV!". But I'm not actually sure. It sure feels like it'd be better off as a subjective trope, but I'm not sure what to do with the pile of "same continuity" examples- do those even count as this trope at all?
So, that's that. What say you?
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 29th 2022 at 9:55:01 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Opened.
I don't think this belongs in Main/ either way; the main sources non-ZCEs are split between Trivia and YMMV, so maybe we could split them into separate pages (either with one of them retaining the Spiritual Successor name or with the current name being disambiguated between the two new pages).
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
the Retromancer
Definitely at least YMMV. Not sure how strict we want to keep this as it's just subjective "these two works have similar X and Y, but otherwise unrelated."
Don't we have Follow the Leader and JustForFun.Surprisingly Similar Stories?
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Y'know, now that you mention it... Yeah, it is pretty similar to those, and isn't much of a reaction to boot.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
the Retromancer
I've always considered Spiritual Successor as a sort of shameless promotion of other works for lurkers that read their prefered work pages. "Oh, you like Work/X? You may also want to check out Work/Y". Dunno if it's fixable.
Edited by Amonimus on Apr 29th 2022 at 9:04:47 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Maybe we could turn this into a Definition-Only Page instead, and direct people who want to add examples to Follow the Leader and Surprisingly-Similar Stories (and maybe also Spiritual Licensee). It's a preexisting term, so I think we should at least have a page for the term itself.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 29th 2022 at 1:18:44 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
In terms of creator-acknowledged examples, that's already a thing with Sincerest Form of Flattery (which for some reason is listed as a trope even though it is 100 percent trivia based).
I think most examples I've seen fall into four categories:
1. Expy misuse-like examples but with works instead of characters (i.e. this work kinda reminds me of my favorite work). A lot of these can become Spiritual Adaptation.
2. Video game specific examples that discuss a type of gameplay that is not special to the game in question
3. Examples that are actually Sincerest Form of Flattery as mentioned above.
4. The only kind that makes sense, and that's works with the same creator/continuity that are basically as much as continuations in everything but name you might get (think, say, Mighty No. 9 in relation to Mega Man), though these are the rarest of the four.
If it weren't such a preestablished term, I think there would be little special about it and it would be safe to turn into a disambig, but the prevalence of the term makes me think we gotta preserve it in some way. I think it could be salvaged if we keep only the number 4 examples, though I'm not sure it would be defined as trivia or not.
Edited by prettycoolguy on Apr 29th 2022 at 2:33:24 PM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Just for clarification, when I was suggesting making this definition-only with a list of pages where examples could go, I meant it would be set up like Stuffed into the Fridge and Mondegreen.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
The Man Outside Reality
I wonder if making this trope a Just For Fun page would be helpful in any way. To me, this doesn't seem to be much of a trope in it of itself, but comparing things to one another ala X Meets Y would be kind of a neat way to repurpose this trope.
Trust no one.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I think the issue with that is that there wouldn't be much of a difference between it and JustForFun.Surprisingly Similar Stories
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I agree that making this Just for Fun would introduce redundancy with Surprisingly-Similar Stories.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
A disambig is starting to sound pretty tempting. I like the disambig/fan-speak combo idea.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
the Retromancer
If it's an existing production term (I've heard of Spiritual Sequel more though), can make it definition-only and put other disambig pages into Related.
Edited by Amonimus on Apr 29th 2022 at 10:15:25 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Professional Wick Checker
Definition-only + disambig make the most sense to me.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Lord Something, Forgetter of Cool Titles
What if we renamed Sincerest Form of Flattery and turned it into the new spiritual adaptation? It seems to be more objective.
oh hey how are you doing?
the Retromancer
Sincerest Form of Flattery seems to be basically this trope but obectively. Would put moving the name on the table, but not sure how it'd work out.
Edited by Amonimus on May 1st 2022 at 9:05:04 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
We're not touching Sincerest Form of Flattery's name unless it gets its own wick check.
Merging would be possible, though.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 1st 2022 at 1:35:45 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
What about disambiguating between the JFF page and Sincerest Form of Flattery (and presumably other pages that we discover)?
CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floors
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Yeah, the disambig still seems to be the best.
Not seeing a full on merge for Sincerest Form of Flattery because most of the examples are just fan comparison or people pointing out that the work with the same characters and lore feels like a successor to that other film with the same characters and lore.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I still think we should go with a definition-only+disambig combo instead of pure disambig if we forbid examples for this while directing would-be examples elsewhere.
I wasn't voting for a merge with Sincerest Form of Flattery earlier. I was just saying it would be an option. I probably could have worded that more clearly.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 1st 2022 at 3:10:38 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
It's been 3 days. Do we have enough options for a crowner?
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
the Retromancer
- Declare YMMV for subjectivity.
- Make Defenition-Only as a production term, adjust the description if necessary.
- Disambiguate between Follow the Leader, Surprisingly-Similar Stories, Recycled Premise and Sincerest Form of Flattery.
- Make Defenition-Only plus rewrite the latter half of the description into a Disambig-like directory.
(she/her)
Hooked a crowner with ^ options.
Macron's notes
the Retromancer
One of the options is pretty much two other combined but I've thought it may be confusing for some if not spelled out what that means.
Edited by Amonimus on May 2nd 2022 at 6:40:16 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Crown Description:
Consensus was to split off a Trivia page for examples for works that have the same creator as the original, but not the same characters/continuity. What should its name be?
To-do list:
In addition, Spiritual Adaptation has been merged with Spiritual Successor while works that objectively share creators are now covered by the Trivia item Creator-Driven Successor, so examples of Spiritual Adaptation (including on-page examples, which have been moved to Sandbox.Spiritual Adaptation until they're moved to Spiritual Successor's on-page example list) need to be moved to Spiritual Successor, while examples of Spiritual Successor that are known to share creators need to be moved to Creator-Driven Successor.
Example cleanup is being tracked using the Spiritual Successor Wick Cleaning sandbox.
In my Spiritual Successor Wick Check, I looked at 90 tropes, and only 2 of them were written in a way that could be classified as "objective". The rest were based on opinion, or described works that were in some way linked to the original...or didn't explain anything at all. There were a lot of those. Here's the quick results:
So, to recap: 19 of the 90 wicks checked were in some way based on audience opinion. 29 of them were works that probably could be considered derivatives of the original, thanks to having the same characters, creators, or in some way sharing a continuity. 39 wicks were classified as ZCE, meaning they never described why the connection existed or what it even was, or if it was intentional or not. That leaves only 2 wicks that could be described as "works objectively meant to take inspiration from another" without being directly related.
So, when I made the wick check, I thought it would result in me saying "Shunt this to YMMV!". But I'm not actually sure. It sure feels like it'd be better off as a subjective trope, but I'm not sure what to do with the pile of "same continuity" examples- do those even count as this trope at all?
So, that's that. What say you?
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 29th 2022 at 9:55:01 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness