The Sociopath cleanup

Can I cut this one from the literature section or at least replace it with characters who do count. Nick, tessa and dierdie care about each other. Or at least for Nick mention it's subverted in the end even if he likes to think of himself as one.

• Though many of the supernatural creatures in The Dresden Files exhibit elements of sociopathy (notably vampires who fully embrace their predatory nature and many of the nastier Winter Court sidhe), the most obvious example is the all-too-human Nicodemus, a man so thoroughly and unapologetically (and yet often politely) evil that a Fallen Angel works with him as a genuine partner. In Skin Game he even refers to himself as a sociopath (correcting Dresden, who called him a psychopath). Nick's wife Tessa and daughter Deirdre are also candidates

Edited by miraculous on Oct 12th 2020 at 6:22:28 AM

Okay.

I'm not an expert, but I think some real-life sociopaths are capable of empathy for a select few people. Should we factor that into redefining the trope?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Sociopaths born without the ability to feel empathy? Like that part of their brain just doesn't work? Maybe that's Psychopaths instead, but for the purposes of the trope are they really different if media doesn't portray them as different?

Even if that's true, isn't this about how media portrays sociopathic characters with the checklist of traits and everything? Allow real-life factors to bleed in and suddenly it's less a trope and more a Useful Note, or worse, it'd become so watered down that any somewhat dickish character might count.

I don't think it's worth redefining, is what I'm saying, even if you're not wrong.

Edit: Looking into it, yes, you're right. Still though, if media doesn't portray sociopaths as capable of empathy...is it worth mentioning?

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 12th 2020 at 10:18:51 AM

double

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 12th 2020 at 10:18:43 AM

Also, how do we factor in Word of God when dealing with examples? If the author claims the character is a Sociopath, but they lack 1-2 of the required traits necessary to qualify for the trope, do they get to be on the page?

Maybe mention them as a Downplayed or invoked example rather then an actual full on example.

^ Invoked Trope is when In-Universe characters deliberately try to make a trope happen, not creators.

Enforced Trope is what was said above.

So... how exactly are we approaching this trope? The main page itself seems to be actually attempting to encourage diagnosing characters as sociopaths (which if we're following real life rules for, would by nature eliminate any characters under the age of 18). The laconic, however, reads "An arrogant and ruthless social predator who preys on others for their own benefit." This is much more simplified and seems to be more along the lines of a fictional version of the actual condition which would be much more malleable for application purposes.

As it stands the trope page itself is quite lengthy and if we're following that it feels more like we're actually trying to identify people within the Anti Social Personality Disorder umbrella and force that on fictional characters. Doesn't something like that belong on a Useful Notes page? I just got informed of this thread's existence the other day and I'm not so sure charging forth with it is a good idea before maybe looking at how the trope could be repaired and tightened? Maybe something like Hollywood Sociopath?

Just found this on the A Song of Ice and Fire Sociopath page (yes there's apparently enough sociopaths for a page, but one issue at a time please). Not really sure it should be there...

• He might have gotten it from his grandfather. Now, Tywin Lannister doesn't seem like he would have anything to do with the monstrous brat personality-wise, but that's because he is an older, much more intelligent man who is aware of the benefits of self-control. In fact, he fits the trope very well when you think about it. His first notable act as the Lord of Casterly Rock was to declare the war on a rival house... And when said house holed themselves in their keep, Tywin's reaction was to break into it and slaughter them all, including small children. Then he got the song written about it as a Badass Boast. He spent most of the Robert's Rebellion wriggling his thumbs, and when Robert was on the edge of victory, he suddenly started worrying the new regime might think him disloyal. His solution? To have his most brutal commander (brutal, as in, he is on this list too - and Tywin is all too happy to use his "services") massacre Elia Martell, the old king's daughter-in-law and her two little children (oh, and also rape Elia), thus removing the new king's rivals for the throne. His personal life doesn't paint him in a positive light either - his biggest goal in life is to uplift his house, which is why he constantly emotionally abuses his younger son, who has the audacity to be a dwarf and born after an especially difficult childbirth, which killed his mother. He isn't very kind to his other two children either, using them as political pawns and generally not showing them much tender feelings. When they dare to stand up for themselves, he accuses them of being selfish and not thinking about "the good of their house". The scary thing is, a lot of people both in- and out of universe actually admire him for his administrative skills, which is fair, but this often leads them to overlook just how despicable he truly is. This eerily mirrors the way in Real Life many high-functioning sociopaths use their lack of moral qualms to get ahead in business or politics.

And some of the information is wrong; Tywin was still heir to his house when he took out the Reynes and the Tarbecks.

Edited by k410ren on Oct 13th 2020 at 2:09:09 PM

I mean how sociopathy is depicted in movies and shows is different from actual sociopathy/ASPD.

Is the intention behind the thread to make something like "Hollywood Sociopathy?"

Edited by AustinDR on Oct 13th 2020 at 11:15:21 AM

Yes, which the page itself acknowledges, though it makes no indication whether it's trying to encourage tropers to look for actual hints of sociopathy in fictional characters and apply a real life diagnosis on them—though the (lengthy) list of criteria implies that's what it's trying to do—or have kind of a pseudo-sociopath trope which would instead cover have fiction typically covers the condition. The latter would make more sense given the site's scope but we'd need a TRS going to trim down the description and tighten it to exactly what we want being defined and categorized.

• shrug*. Perhaps a difference to be made between hollywood sociopaths and what characters would clinically qualify as psychopaths or sociopaths in real life. One of the things that's mentioned on the main The Sociopath page (or in the analysis) is that oftentimes real-life sociopaths are too divorced from reality to cover up their crime, while a Hollywood sociopath likely would.

Not sure how often I'll be around here but what I'll reiterate is that the point of what I'm saying is that, from my own experience in cleanup threads, it's best to first firmly establish what exactly the trope is and how we want it defined before proceeding with the cleanup thread process. I'd say figure that out, TRS it and then get to the business here.

That's why I was opposed to Imperial's idea of changing the definition- because we're focused on media first and foremost, not reality. People who write Sociopathic characters often fall back on certain stereotypes and confuse them with Psychopaths, creating a hybrid 'path of sorts that is usually always evil and often over-the-top.

Most of the meat of this can and should likely be moved to a Useful Notes page, which I think would be very useful. The page should focus on media portrayal.

I'm gonna hold off further commentary until the thread as a whole decides which direction it wants to take this. I think I and WarJay have listed out the issues with attempting to play psychologist and force assessing a real life condition on fictional characters.

Sounds good.

Yeah the current description is way too long and overly complicated so it needs to be truncated too.

The Nostalgia Chick herself (as a character, not as Lindsay) is listed as The Sociopath. The entry does make a decent argument, but I haven't watched the show in a long time and there's a nasty trend with TGWTG pages on this wiki being written to more complex than they really are.

• The Sociopath: She has no empathy, is self-centered, doesn't know or care about social norms, uses manipulation and threats to get her way, only rarely shows remorse for her actions and has very little regard for personal boundaries. She also crosses over with narcissist due to criminal lack of self-esteem.

I think it counts. Chick was intentionally designed to be an awful human being, using Lindsay's own statement; I watched the show all the time as a kid and the way she treated those around her does bring to mind certain aspects of sociopathy.

But, she was shown to be capable of empathy on a handful of occasions, like during the Dark Nella saga where she had to turn her back into normal Nella, and she helped the Critic during To Boldly Flee. So it might not be a 100% fit but it's not complaining either as that's just how the Chick was written.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 13th 2020 at 3:28:39 PM

There's a problem with having characters fit the traits of "real life sociopaths", namely that "sociopath" is no longer regarded as a real medical diagnosis. There is no actual accepted diagnostic criteria for "sociopath". The closest is ASPD, but that's not quite the same thing, as the word "sociopath" has grown beyond that definition, hence why it is no longer used. There's also the issue of whether it means something different from "psychopath", which is also problematic as, again, neither word has an actual, medical definition.

Edited by TheMountainKing on Oct 13th 2020 at 3:29:26 PM

I'm aware but it's much easier to work with what's written on this site—correct or not—rather than delve into what I know about psychology and diagnosis, which would be a far broader talk than a simple trope definition requires.

I guess the main thing is, of the symptoms the we have currently listed on the page, which ones are we looking for. Does a character have to hit all five, or just the majority of them? The super-condensed list is:

1. Lack of Empathy and Devoid of Conscience
2. Consummate Liar and Manipulator
3. Pathological Need for Stimulation
4. Shallow Affect and Complete Lack of Emotional Reciprocity
5. Grandiose Sense of Self-Importance

So, is this enough to get a proper definition of fictional sociopaths? Or does should we scrap these symptoms and start over from scratch?

That's basically just a very brief version of the actual Sociopath Checklist. While I'm sure writers probably use it when writing 'paths, it's not necessarily about fictional portrayal but more an effort to make a more realistic 'path character. It'd be better moved to the Useful Notes page.

The Narcissist has very similar issues.

And, if we want to TRS this, now is the time. A lot of the backlog has been cleared out.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 13th 2020 at 4:31:55 AM