During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Blackmore, Sine, The Goddamn Dice King and The Goddamn Pirate King.
Blackmore
Woagh
Angel I'm not understanding your post, you say you're not confident enough to give a yes, yet you give a . Which is it?
The MILF Virus
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I said I was confident at the end there. If you mean by doubts, it means I can see why people don't think he qualifies, but personally I do lean more he qualifies then not which is why I give him a yes.
Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Feb 22nd 2022 at 7:33:19 AM
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
The Moron
What do you mean? He said he has his doubts but is confident enough to say yes
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
'd
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 22nd 2022 at 10:33:20 AM
Okay thank you for clarifying. Scratch that I misread Angel's post, heh sorry about that...
Edited by jjjj2 on Feb 22nd 2022 at 12:15:05 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Me Listening to You RN
On YMMV.Monster Verse, on Godzilla's MB entry it says that he fought Kong in Tokyo, when it should say Hong Kong. Does anyone mind if I change that?
to Eames, Arthur, Yusuf, Gold Roger, Xana, Silas and Dicey
With Psych leaving Prime on March 1st, I have been rewatching certain episodes to see if I could get some final candidates - this guy may be the last candidate from the show that I will cover (Unless Prime changes it's mind, or I inadvertently rewatch a random episode with a potential keeper, or a combo of the above)
The Candidate
Dane Northcutt, the Villain of the Week of the episode "Ferry Tale"
This episode sees Shawn and Gus on a ferry participating in an environmental clean-up. Gus gets seasick after his seasickness patch falls off, so he and Shawn go look for a bathroom and come across four furloughed convicts (two of whom are Northcutt and his partner Sanfus Sanders) and a prison guard named Craig waiting in front of the door. They decide to go to the nurses room instead, since they aren't allowed to go to the bathroom while a convict is also present.
However, they later run into Craig again, but this time, he has been tied up by the convicts who are now loose on the ferry. Shawn calls Henry, and decides to take matters into his own hands, against Henry's advice. Shawn intercepts the prisoners, sabotages their escape, and inadvertently escalates the situation into a hostage crisis situation, with Dane threatening to shoot hostages unless they are given a raft and a bunch of other items for a clean getaway.
Shawn tries to break the unity between the convicts by ripping off Gus' patch (making him seasick) and starts yelling at the convicts (earning him a boot to the face). The convicts also realize that there are snipers surrounding the boat, and Shawn tries to convince them to let the hostages go, since "that's all the cops care about in these situations". The convicts take a third option and decide to use the hostages as a human shield. Northcutt and Sanders also appear to have shot two of the hostages, but it later turns out that they swapped clothes with them and fired two shots, making their escape via a medic raft.
Back at SBPD, Shawn believes there might be a third accomplice, as he remembers a tattoo on one of the inmates. He learns that the gang - Tres Diablos - was run by Northcutt's former cellmate Percy Dunn, who has been dead for 2 years. They decide to talk to Percy's mother Lorraine Dunn, who was in regular contact with Northcutt since Percy's death. They learn that Northcutt had paid Lorraine a visit earlier that day and ask to see Percy's room, since Dane requested to head up there. Shawn searches the room and discovers that Northcutt found and took a hidden key, which was for a stash of money that Percy hid - Percy knew he wouldn't live to get the money, so he told Northcutt about it.
Shawn then gets a clue to go visit Northcutt's girlfriend, and learns that Northcutt intends to use the money for her and their son. She also tells them that he talked about "going to church", leading Shawn to realizes that the money is hidden there.
At the church, the Psych duo and Craig finds Northcutt and Sanders with the money, and take them both down. However, Craig betrays the duo, steals the cash, and escapes in The Blueberry (having lost his job due to letting the convicts escape on the ferry). Shawn and Gus catch up and try to reason with him, but he points the gun at them and shoots... at Northcutt and Sanfus Sanders, who were right behind them.
Magnificence
Northcutt is working with three other convicts, but he is the one calling the shots, and he is the one who is given relationships and a motivation. He got his partner and two other convicts to coordinate an escape during a work furlough, and would have gotten away with it had Shawn not intervened. In fact, the only reason why Shawn and Gus came across the escape in the first place was because Gus got seasick.
Shawn's interferences also give Northcutt a chance to show him think on his feet - after Shawn sabotages the lifeboat escape, Shawn tells them that they have to wait for the police to take them in. Instead, he takes everyone hostage and makes demands to the cops. When he realizes that snipers are surrounding the ferry, he forces the passengers to form a human shield around him, swaps clothes with one of them, and makes a clean getaway via the medic raft.
He yells a Big "NO!" when Shawn foils his initial escape, but as mentioned previously, he improvizes an alternate route of escape. He is later seen wiping sweat off his face out of stress, but it is minor and doesn't really mean much.
I also doubt they way he taken down is too bad either. After Craig ties everyone up with duct tape, the duo escape and drop a cabinet on Northcutt and Sanders. They escape in practically no time at all. They also get shot by Craig, but to be fair, he is a prison guard and it is his job to be ready for a situation like this. We later see them in the police station, but Northcutt doesn't seem too upset about getting caught.
Also, Sanders doesn't count as an MB because he doesn't do much compared to Northcutt.
Bastardry
Obviously, Northcutt is a criminal who has committed crimes such as grand larceny and armed robbery. He doesn't actually kill any of the hostages, even though he threatens to do so. When surrounded by snipers, he ditches two of his teammates while he and Sanders make an escape.
As for redeeming qualities, he has a good relationship with his cellmates mother, and is trying to be a good father as well. He intends to use the stolen money to provide for his son and girlfriend.
Edited by magnumtropus on Feb 23rd 2022 at 11:45:39 AM
Sile, Blackmore and Northcutt
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Ariadne
Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Feb 23rd 2022 at 3:44:45 AM
Yes to Dane and Blackmore.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Northcutt
Yes to Northcutt.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Northcutt. Now my second Vampire one. I am not as sure. This is a short one.
Who is Grace?
In Kind tells the story of Grace Williams, a girl who can't walk, who after her father Grant's attempt to kill her because she was becoming a bordun on him fails and she is left for dead, is saved by Seanan and turned into a vampire. Following her father confessing to the crime of murdering while claiming it was a mercy, Grace is forced to watch as the media and local town treat her death as a martyr and her father using it to get sympathy points for himself. Grace decides that she has had enough and comes up with a plan to "repay his kindness". Grace has Seanan take her to her house planning, where they wait and when he returns Grace scares him unconscious. When he awakens, Grace begins to psychologically torture him, such as allowing Seanan to feed off of her Infront of him. Afterward she attacks him leaving him injured but alive, releasing a tape that reveals that she alive before going into hiding, turning her father into a pariah.
Is she magnificent? Bitch?
Okay so her plan is simple but affective for a short story. She manages to get revenge on her father and discredit him. The problem is that it might be a little to simplistic, though there is points where she changes her plans as she was originally planning to kill her. There is also a moment where she loses her cool but she gets control back quickly. Even before becoming a vampire she was quite observant noticing things others didn't.
My problem is that I am not sure she is bitch enough. She wants to get revenge on her father and to do this psychologically tortures him and turns him into a pariah. That said he did try kill her in a horrible way through morphine which didn't actually kill her because he messed it up (it is also revealed he was going to do it a more painful way but stopped because it would be to painful for him) and then uses it to get sympathy from the town. That said he is strongly hinted to actually love her and legit thought he was doing a mercy killing, but like Grace says "murder isn’t mercy".
Conclusion?
Abstaining but leaning no personally. But I figured
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Based on the EP, unsure on Grace. Not sure it's enough and probably isn't.
Abstain on Grace.
I have one I also wanna get before I propose on CM...you don't usually expect a Splatter Western MB, but here we are:
What's the work?
The Last of the Ravagers is the 13th Splatter Western novel, written by Bryan Smith...the town of Snakebite is undergoing some...changes. A nice little place, overseen by Sheriff Ned Kilmister, things are happening. The dead are rising, monsters appear, people are butchered and a dark stranger has shown up to bring destruction and death...
And a mysterious woman is there to stop him. Enter Raven Decker.
Who is Raven Decker?
A beautiful gunslinger. Raven is a warrior, plain and simple....Raven is also well aware of the multiverse, and the countless parallel universes, being a warrior who's fought through the ages. Now, I need to explain the Ravagers: a cult of powerful necromancers who have annihilated entire worlds to reap the souls they find, Raven hunted the Ravagers and began to destroy them, one by one, harvesting their powers to become stronger and destroy the Ravagers. One of the Ravagers, Doyle, turned on his fellows to kill them and take their power to escape Raven's justice, fleeing to the earth realm and setting up shop in Snakebite to reap the souls of the town, but also because Snakebite is secretly the home of a powerful reality-spanning device called the Infinity Engine which can be used to travel from universe to universe, or gain even more power. Doyle would be unstoppable with it and Raven is there to prevent him from using it. And to kill him.
Arriving in Snakebite, Raven enlists the help of Sheriff Ned and takes a liking to him as the bodies pile up. Raven alerts people to get clear as Doyle's twisted, corrupted "bride" Eleanor leads a siege to massacre the town. Raven has everyone hide out in the saloon which is secretly the Infinity Engine. When Eleanor brags about her invincibility? Raven blows her away with a special bullet she's brought...and Ned lears Raven is in fact planning to empower herself by having the engine steal the lives of the townspeople, killing all of them to make her strong enough to fight Doyle. Raven defends her actions here, but opts for a plan...when she can use the Engine, she has her own head blown off, and imparts her soul's essence into Ned's body...luring Doyle into a trap thinking she's dead and when Doyle decides to desecrate her body, Raven activates the Infinity Engine to tear Doyle's soul apart...
Bringing herself and Ned to another parallel universe where she consumes her own duplicate and absorbs her consciousness into herself, Raven cheerfully invites Ned on further adventures with her.
Mitigating issues?
So, Raven's got charm and charisma down pat. She's sarcastic, friendly, enjoyable, cheerful and surprisingly well put together for someone who's hunted down a depraved Necromancer Cult for centuries. She's also ruthless. Ned is rightly horrified to learn that Raven fully plans on killing everybody in Snakebite to fuel her powers and kill Doyle and says she's as evil as Doyle is. Raven is genuinely offended by this and says she's sacrificing a town to stop a guy who's killed entire worlds and plans to wipe out this one. Her plans, however? Work.
Granted Raven has a curious approach to morality. She literally absorbs the consciousness of an alternate reality Raven and when Ned is, again, rightly horrified by this, Raven is just "eh, she was pretty shallow anyways, all for the best, and check out my new dress," Ned just realizes that trying to get her to see that she's done anything wrong is a complete exercise in futility.
She does intend to protect the bigger picture and she's definitely very fond of Ned, who becomes her lover over the story and she states she has no intent to force him to stay with her, but she's happy to share her life with him for a while.
Conclusion?
Easy keeper.
Yes to Raven.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Weak no to Grace. While he tries to be merciful about it, it doesn't changes the fact that she didn't want to die in the first place, so I tend to see her revenge as somewhat justified.
Raven easily keeps, however.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Raven, Weak for Grace
General question but if you want to propose a protagonist as a MB what are the bastard qualities you look for?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
The Moron
Yes to Raven
Willingness to get innocents hurt, usually taking particularly risky gambits, Villain Protagonists in general usually have decent shots (in standalone works, at least - long-runners tend to tank their VPs later on) - basically, good intentions but they've got some shadiness to them
I consider the bare minimum one of three things, depending on the work’s tone.
- Murder of innocents
- Minor crimes that still hurt people
- flat-out Cartoonish Supervillainy
Classy, Refined, Unstable
, Alright thanks for letting me know
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
If the protagonist is consciously and seriously willing to screw over innocent people, he's alright in my book.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Yes to Arthur, the Patriarch and Mya, Silas, Yusuf, Dice, Roger, Sile, and Blackmore.
It's been two weeks since the midseason finale of Star Trek Priodgy and all the villains are way too slimy and unlikable to count, even though it's a kid's show. I could still do Legate Damar from Deep Space 9, but that will take a while.