During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Guys, I did kind of write an EP, and there's another above mine.
Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 27th 2021 at 1:11:53 AM
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Whoops, sorry! ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Charnier and Aunt Bridget.
Edited by HamburgerTime on Nov 27th 2021 at 3:17:53 AM
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
to Chef, Bridget and Charnier.
Yes to Charnier. The other EP is 2000 words which I’m not sure it needs to be and it’s my brother’s birthday so allow me to peruse that one later.
Gotta love Jaws!
to Nescaffier, Bridget and Charnier.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Happy Birthday to your bro.
Yes to Nescaffier, Bridget and Charnier.
With us having a fanfic Version of Queen Elincia keeping, I'm curious if there might be a version of Ike that keeps. I mean I've seen muscle-heads keep before.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Too bad there's no Pure Good cleanup, because I feel like Tara Crossley or Sorsha Doyle from the series would have made some worthy candidates. Especially the former one.
Hello, I'm the American Cinema Critic, I remember because the majors don't.
@ interests, Thank you!
@ Klavice, You’ve seen rewritten versions of “muscle heads” keep. Brilliance is a requirement here.
@ Space, Not sure what to say, we don’t cover that here.
Edited by 43110 on Nov 27th 2021 at 10:06:38 AM
Yes to Bridget and Charnier. I extend my birthday wishes to 43’s brother.
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Nov 27th 2021 at 5:13:11 AM
Bridget and Charnier. Happy birthday to your bro man!
Shin Megami Tensei IV
@43110: birthday wishes to your brother
Happy Birthday to your brother 43!
Yes to Charnier and Bridget.
Time for a new effort post guys and a first for the thread: our very own Evil Weapon MB, not counting the bastard sword we're using as the main page image. This will also be my first new Warcraft candidate of 4 I intend to do, with the other trio being various rogues.
During the Legion expansion, each class got their very own legendary weapons unique to one of their three talent specializations. Some just happened to sentient and full of personality, but only one proved to be one hell of a grand schemer. Also note, for reasons to be explained later I'll be using she instead of it.
Who is Xal'atath?
Xal'atath, the Blade of the Black Empire, is an ancient and eldritch dagger dating back to dawn of Azeroth during the days of the Black Empire during which the void-aligned Old Gods ruled over the nascent world. The legendary weapon for Shadow Priests, the dagger has changed hands countless times over the millennia and has brought about the destruction of empires and betrayed every wielder who ever sought to harness her power. Sowing death and chaos wherever she goes, an early example of Xal'atath's sordid past was driving the a troll witch doctor mad with power lust and manipulated him into sacrificing his followers in a ritual that awoke one of the Old Gods' servants which led a campaign that nearly drove the Gurubashi Empire to ruin. Centuries later, she would guide a dwarven queen to make war on the other clans, only to mysteriously disappear when they retaliated. Ever closer to the modern day, Xal'atath whispered to a cleric follower of the Holy Light and overtime corrupted her and all her followers to worship the Void as the Cult of Forgotten Shadows. Now, despite all that and having a giant eyeball in her handle, Xal'atath proved an instant hit and got the nickname Knaifu (knife waifu) from the player base. Why? Because Blizzard for some reason gave the shadowy eldritch dagger an incredibly sultry voice.
Anyways, coming to the Legion expansion proper, the priest player is sent on quests to find weapons to help defeat the demonic Burning Legion and Shadow Priests are lucky enough to get Xal'atath. Research leads the priest to the Tomb of Tyr where they find an agent of the Twilight's Hammer cult attempting to use Xal'atath to revive a dead minion of the Old Gods known as Zakajz the Corruptor. The priest intervenes and manages to defeat the cultist as Xal'atath calls her wielder weak and devours his soul, and further tells the priest to devour the essence of Zakajz to make her even more powerful. Xal'atath has sporadic lines throughout the expansion but mostly serves to whisper propheticaly to the priest. Some important events she does accomplish is plant a single dark flower in the Emerald Dream just after it was freed from Old God corruption and at the end of the expansion thanks the priest for taking her to the Seat of the Titan Pantheon and giving the Void a foothold there. A few more humorous interactions include top tier trolling by Xal'atath by giving the player various pieces of Shmuck Bait that ends in their death. Regardless, she and all the other artifact weapons are drained at the end of the expansion to drain away the energy of a giant sword piercing the world.
Weakened but still scheming, Xal'atath came into possession by the Naga who sought to drown the world in massive storms and was sought out for the location of three artifacts that would help them accomplish their goals. The player, regardless of class, manage to find her in the Naga's possession and she talks the player into trusting her by guiding them to finding all the artifacts and destroying them. The first was called the Void Stone and was in the possession of a female elven cultist that is killed by the player, and Xal'atath uses the power of the Void Stone to possess the corpse and take on a "more pleasing form." Afterwards, she helps the player take a trident from a pirate and a crown from a giant turtle, and finally has the player take the artifacts to an ancient temple under the guise of disposing of them. Alas, the player is under her control at this point and, much to the absolute shock of the entire player base, Xal'atath betrays them. She hands both the artifacts and the player themselves over to the Old God N'Zoth in exchange for completely severing her from the dagger. Now truly free from prison in the blade, Xal'atath walks away in her elven body and dissapars through a portal, not to be seen since. The now empty dagger still had some power and is later used to both free N'Zoth from his prison and ultimately wielded by Wrathion to destroy him.
Is she magnificent?
A playful and seductive voice combined with often trollish demeanor really goes a long way to explaining why Xal'atath became one of the most popular artifact weapons in Legion. She's got the charisma down pat and is shown to be an extremely skilled schemer and manipulator by using the player and countless others as pawns in her games to further her own ends. She's certainly a magnificent little blade.
Is she a bitch?
Absolutely. She betrays and destroys the lives of those who wield her and is without doubt evil, even if all she desired was her own freedom the dagger.
Final Verdict?
I say we have our very first Evil Weapon to count.
to Charnier and the evil dagger.
Sexy voice dagger lady.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
You already upvoted...
Edited by jjjj2 on Nov 27th 2021 at 11:40:42 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
to Charnier and Xal'atath. I guess the Bastard Sword won't be alone ...
Yes to the sultry dagger. Thanks for the wishes to the fam folks, had a nice day meeting up with him and our parents!
Yes to Norn, Seeress, Nescaffier, ''McCoy'', Charnier and Xal'atath
No to Snuffles and Roxie.
Now for another Star Trek proposal, this one from an infamous Star Trek movie...
What is the work?
Star Trek V, is the fifth Star Trek film and a train wreck, combining bad comedy and with an ill-advised plot with the Enterprise crew seeking God, however, it lacks some of the really gross elements from other films, like Star Trek Nemesis, so it's not the worst film in the series. I am going to be a little snarky with this EP...
Who is Sybok? What has he done?
Sybok is Spock's half-brother, who has never been mentioned before in this film or after this film (between this and Discovery, Spock's family tree has become somewhat convoluted). Unlike other Vulcans, Sybok embraced his emotions and was cast out of Vulcan for his heretical actions. One day, Sybok receives a vision from a being that claims to be God, telling Sybok to go to the barrier in the center of the galaxy and find the planet Sha Ka Ree, where God lives.
However, Sybok has no way to get there. Sybok is on the planet Nimbus III, a publicity stunt run by the Federation, Klingon, and Romulan Empires, a planet that is designed to promote peace but really only attracts the dregs of the galaxy and the various diplomats on the planet from the 3 governments are kinda on the outs with their respective governments. Sybok starts a cult on Nimbus III, Sybok is able to use his mind-meld powers to take away people's pain and then mentally control them. Sybok's cult attacks the main settlement on Nimbus, Paradise City, and takes the diplomats hostages.
Sybok then forces the diplomats to send his demands to the Federation, demanding a Federation starship be sent to Nimbus to parlay for the hostages' release. Sybok claims he doesn't want to harm the hostages but says the Federation should not ignore his demands if they want the hostages to be unharmed.
The Enterprise arrives on the planet and since the transporters are not working, Kirk and an away team take a shuttlecraft to Nimbus. Kirk and crew manage to free the diplomats, but they have been mind-controlled by Sybok and Sybok takes Kirk and his away team hostages. Sybok forces Kirk to take them to the Enterprise. Kirk takes Sybok's gun, but Sybok knocks it out of his hands. Spock takes the gun, but Sybok knows Spock will not shoot him, so he takes the gun out of Spock's hands and forces Spock, Bones, and Kirk into the Brig. Scottie frees them the Brig, but Sybok later discovers them and forces Bones and Spock to confront their pain (showing Bones images of his father slowly dying and Spock seeing his birth and his father calling him ''so human'') in order to release them from their pain, but Spock and Bones resist Sybok's mind control and Kirk refuses to submit to Sybok, saying he needs his pain. The Enterprise reaches the great barrier and Sybok believes that it is illusion, forcing the Enterprise through the barrier.
Sybok gives back command to Kirk but asks to be able to go to Sha Ka Ree to find God. Sybok, Spock, Bones, and Kirk go to Sha Ka Ree and find ''God'' and no it's not really God, it's another evil cosmic energy creature (the novels say his real name is ''The One''). Sybok is delighted to meet a being that he thinks is God and God asks about the starship that brought them there, asking if it can carry his wisdom across the galaxy. Sybok proclaims it will be his chariot, but Kirk asks God an important question ''What does God need with a Starship?'' The false God cannot give an answer and doesn't know who Kirk is, so the false God eventually tortures Kirk and the away team with lighting bolts, demanding Sybok bring the starship to him. Realizing this is not God, Sybok uses his mind control powers on this false God after he tries to torment Sybok with illusions of Sybok as a deranged mad man. Sybok is able to distract the false God enough to allow Kirk and the others to escape to the shuttle, but Sybok is killed by the false God in the process.
Is he magnificent?
Sybok is not an over-the-top, larger-than-life villain like Khan is, he is a far more humble guru type, but he is charismatic, even without his mind control powers, he is an effective religious leader. He's able to fool everyone about his true intentions, setting up this hostage situation to get access to a Starship. He knows Spock will not shoot him and knows that the barrier is an illusion. Sybok is fooled by the false god, but being tricked by an evil god being is nothing to be ashamed about and Sybok gives his life to undo his error. Because he doesn't suppress his emotions as other Vulcans do, he can be quite jovial and personable.
Is he Bastard?
Sybok is an Anti-Villain, he believes he is right and if he finds God, he can bring enlightenment to the galaxy. But Sybok was willing to harm the hostages to get his way and will force people to confront their pain to be free from it.
Final Verdict?
Bad movie, not a bad villain, I think he may count.
Edited by Overlord on Nov 27th 2021 at 10:45:26 AM
I mean we did approve Mike Myers Cat as well as Illumination's Grinch, so really I don't think quality of a movie should ever be an issue. Yes to Sybok and the first Evil Weapon.
Edited by Klavice on Nov 27th 2021 at 10:09:33 AM
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Nescaffier, Bridget, Charnier, Xal, & Sybok
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Yes to Xal’atath and Sybok.
Nescaffier, Bridget, Charnier, Knaifu and Sybok
Edited by HamburgerTime on Nov 27th 2021 at 3:07:51 AM
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."