Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

I found this on YMMV.The Worst Witch:

• Unintentionally Sympathetic: Believe it or not, Miss Gullet in the 2017 series qualifies as one, see Jerkass Woobie for more details.

I don't know if this is the place to discuss Unintentionally Sympathetic as well, but I don't know what to do with this entry. The way it is written is not just odd but also zero context. I am not super familiar with the work right now. Should I cut it or hide it?

Just cut it, methinks, but you could hide it too.

I cut it.

As for this debated example from Alvin and the Chipmunks:

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: The audience is supposed to see Dave as an in-over-his-head, but well meaning parental figure for the Chipmunks who learns to embrace his family. However, some audience members find it hard to sympathize with Dave, given his cruelty toward the chipmunks, along with nearly trying to send them away, even if he didn't go through with it.

This was removed before as complaining as opposed to them supposed to be seen as sympathetic, they added it back with the same problems. So re-cut? (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?parent_id=111221&type=att#comment-330603 ATT]] seems to lean to that). From the same troper:

YMMV.The Little Mermaid 1989:

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: The audience is supposed to see Triton as a flawed, but ultimately well-meaning father who sees the error of his ways after making the horrible mistake of destroying Ariel's grotto. Granted, his prejudice against humans isn't depicted positively, but some find it very difficult to sympathize with him after destroying the grotto, considering that this is tantamount to destroying a child's possessions. Outright states he's supposed to be in the wrong for that. Will cut unless I hear anything.

• In "D.W. The Picky Eater", the audience is supposed to sympathize with Mr. and Mrs. Read over their decision to ban D.W. from coming to dinner for Grandma Thora's birthday. While her behavior at the restaurant where the incident occurred certainly wasn't ideal, some fans find it hard to sympathize with her parents, given that D.W. is only four years old and as such, four year olds will inevitably be picky eaters. Seems valid. Might it need to be reworded?

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Ming is supposed to be viewed by the audience as a well-meaning, but in-over-her-head helicopter parent who sees the errors of her ways, but considering how extreme some of her actions are (accusing the clerk of sordid behavior, outright attacking her daughter for disobeying her), some find it very difficult to sympathize with her at all and view her as cruel and sadistic.

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: The audience is supposed to see Beth as unfairly affected by Adam's Asperger's, but some of the comments she makes to him (calling him a "fucking child" after being well aware of his condition) come off to some viewers as insensitive and cruel, making it hard for some to sympathize with her.

• Unintentionally Sympathetic: The audience is supposed to see Bojack as feeling entitled to an unearned apology, but it's hard to blame Bojack for being upset, given that he was invited to Herb's home, implying the hatchet was buried. The fact that he genuinely wanted to make amends makes it hard for some viewers to blame Bojack too.
• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: The audience is supposed to empathize with Herb over Bojack cutting off all contact with him for the past 20 years since his dismissal from Horsin' Around. That being said, some find it hard to side with Herb, considering that he never considered why Bojack didn't call. Additionally, the fact that Herb willingly invited Bojack to his home in spite of not forgiving him might make it even more difficult for audiences to see his point of view.

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: The audience is supposed to at least understand why Rochelle is so quick to beat and verbally assault her kids, but considering how much joy she derives from these two actions, along with how cruel her behavior is even for the standards of the time period, some viewers find it very difficult to sympathize with Rochelle at all.

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Drew and Charlotte might come off as this to some viewers in "Word of the Day". The audience is supposed to see their reactions to Angelica's use of the offensive word as appropriate, yet considering that Angelica genuinely had no idea that the phrase she was repeating contained an offensive word, coupled with their refusal to even tell her what the word was, some viewers find their behavior to be insensitive and unreasonable.

• Suzie can come off as this to some. While the audience is supposed to sympathize with her having an immature, slacker husband in Oskar, it can be hard to feel sorry for her when she continuously forgives him (||at least until *The Jungle Movie*||) in spite of it being abundantly clear that he regresses to his conman ways at the end of each episode. Additionally, the fact that she's been shown to throw plates at Oskar, while he's never been shown or implied to do the same thing, can make her seem even crueler than him.

Any of these with keeping?

I disagree with the Bojack examples but they seem like they're on the right track. I think the US example for Bojack should delve more into the tight space he believed he was put into, though... not sure about the UU entry for Herb as it leaves out the context that Bojack called Herb first, and Herb's tone made it extremely clear that he was still unhappy with Bojack (he literally opens the call with "Ruin any lives lately?") and only really gave him a chance to see if Bojack would do it.

I'm sceptical about that UU Bojack example. More than anything else, that whole episode is built around a Hard Truth Aesop that sometimes apologising doesn't get you forgiveness, or really anything. If people don't like that Herb didn't forgive Bojack, fine, but they've missed the point of the story entirely.

They just might not agree with how the story conveyed that point, which is an opinion I've seen offsite, albeit relatively rarely.

Maybe, but if there's enough of that to be worth mentioning IMO it fits better in Broken Base.

I want to bring up an example placed on the Invincible 2021 YMMV page.

• William in the scene where he blames Mark for not saving Rick in time. Some viewers also believe that his Brutal Honesty on how Mark screwed up his own relationship with Amber, and his mistakes as a superhero were ill-timed/inconsiderate. It ends up Gone Horribly Wrong because Mark seriously considers retiring because he's worried that all he's doing is messing up rather than saving lives. William himself later admits, after Mark nearly dies fighting his father, that it was a dick thing of him to say.

Now I think the issue with this one is pretty obvious, it states that the character in question later admitted that it was a jerk move for him to say what he said. If the character themselves acknowledge that what they did wasn't okay, then it's not unintentional to find them unsympathetic in that moment. This last sentence shows that this entry is missing the unintentional part of unintentionally unsympathetic. I don't think there's any counterargument to be made in favor of removing this one, but does anyone agree or disagree?

Most of these examples would need to be cut for being shoehorned in with Weasel Words alone (almost all of them have a degree of "X may come across as this for some", which is already enough of a reason to cut them). The few that I have cut already are for this reason.

I found an example of Unintentionally Sympathetic on the My Hero Academia YMMV page that seems to be incorrect to me.

• How "unintentional" is up to interpretation, but Hawks is shown to be in the wrong for killing Twice, something that civilians call him out on. However, honestly what was he supposed to do? Tragic backstory and mental instability aside, Twice was a literal One-Man Army who could possibly single-handedly kill all enemies of the League of Villains and was completely loyal to them. And due to Twice's powers, it would be rather hard for Hawks to try and take him down non-lethally and he even tried to reason with him (even if it somewhat comes across as Condescending Compassion). As tragic as Twice's death is, it's hard to see Hawks being completely at fault for it.

This one already raises some red flags to me due to how it says how "unintentional" it's supposed to be is up to interpretation. If the example itself brings up how the unintentional part of unintentionally sympathetic is unclear, then that's a definite mark against any example. But there's also other significant issues with this example.

One being that Hawks really isn't framed in a way where he's supposed to be unsympathetic. Dabi tells Tsukuyomi what Hawks did yet he unambiguously supports his mentor and believes that he did the right thing and the narrative doesn't frame him as wrong for doing so. And while civilians did indeed think negatively of Hawks for this, the entry is ignoring the context of why that is. Dabi leaked footage of the event to the public with the help of Skeptic that's specifically edited to make it seem worse to smear Hawks' image. This video was the public's only context for this event. Due to their limited information, one can't seriously take their condemnation of him as the narrative specifically framing him as wrong for it. The narrative quite clearly lays his reasoning for doing so out and the narrative doesn't treat this as incorrect. I don't see how the narrative, as it stands, intends for Hawks to be viewed in an unsympathetic light.

I think this example should be removed on the grounds that the narrative doesn't frame Hawks in a light that would make the sympathy one gives to him unintentional. Does anyone here have thoughts on this?

I've thought about bringing this one up before. I agree with cutting it. The audience gets to see Hawks' perspective and understand why he felt he had to do this, and the backlash he gets from the rest of society is because of Dabi framing it in the worst way possible.

Also, I think you mean Tokoyami, not Tsukuyomi.

Regarding the Turning Red one: I don't recall Ming being presented in a way that made her feel particularly sympathetic prior to her seeing the error of her ways, what with her helicopter parenting going way over the top even before Mei's first transformation.

And for what it's worth, I noticed that various episodes of Star Trek have their own entries for Unintentionally Unsympathetic on the individual episode pages, but none of them are on the main trope page. Someone ought to take care of that.

Edited by DoctorWTF on May 2nd 2022 at 4:14:35 AM

Why don't you?

If I can find the time I could get started, but there are quite a few of them spanning the Star Trek franchise (likely enough to warrant its own page).

No, I don't. His hero name is Tsukuyomi, which is what I was referring to.

Ah, yes. I forgot about that. My apologies.

Anyone else agree with cutting the Hawks entry?

Got an example from YMMV of Young Justice 2010 page, under the season 4 folder.

• Gar himself. While many viewers agree that his behaviour is a realistic portrayal of trauma responses and grief a subset of viewers can't get behind his cold and callous reactions towards anyone trying to help him.

The issue with this one is pretty straightforward. The character this is about is obviously supposed to be unsympathetic for this. I watch the show itself so allow me to give some context without going into too much detail. The character did things like coldly show his girlfriend the door and callously dismissed the heartfelt plea of a longtime friend and former teammate. And it's worth noting that he was called out for this behavior by his adopted sister so it's pretty clear that the narrative intended for him to look unsympathetic in these moments. It's another case where the unsympathetic part is clearly intentional and thus not an example of this trope.

I've also been watching Young Justice, and I 100% agree.

Ditto. While BB grief is understandable, his hurtful attitude isn't portrayed as a right way to handle things.

I found this on YMMV.Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness (Beware spoilers):

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: The movie doesn't gloss over the fact that Dr. Strange is going to extremes to save the day. However, the magic he uses in the climax is so obviously evil that a few in the audience may find it disconcerting how little characters like Christine, America, and Wong take issue with it. This is especially true given that Wanda is villainized for using some of the same magic. Well, at least she didn't use necromancy to summon a legion of the damned to do her bidding.

Maybe I am missing something but this doesn't explain how: A) he is meant to be sympathetic or B) How using the magic makes him unsympathetic. Also the final line boarders on complaining.

Edit: Nevermind looking at the page again the entry has apparently already been removed by a different troper.

Edited by Bullman on May 6th 2022 at 12:27:25 PM

Linking my ATT query here

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?parent_id=111765&type=att

This is the entry in question that got deleted

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Joe guilt-tripping Barry and Iris into saving Thawne has been met with this response. Considering that Thawne is an irredeemable monster, who admitted to Barry's face that he will keep trying to kill him and his family after being saved, and that he would've died making his own bed, trying to imply that them letting things run its course is equivalent to murder was just seen as going way too far. This is especially notable given, barring events that have been undone by time travel, Thawne hasn't actually had a direct negative effect on Joe's life, in contrast to him ruining Barry's life multiple times.

I think the entry has validity, it is also on the main work page, albeit under Informed Wrongness.

YMMV.The Flash 2014 S 8 E 5 Armageddon Part Five and YMMV.The Flash 2014, for reference

If general consensus is that Joe comes across as such then by all means it should be returned. However, it seems somewhat realistic that Joe a mentor would have issue with Barry and Iris just shrugging and leaving a man begging for his life to die. The character is not trying to be sympathetic but true to character. As for Informed Wrongness if Barry is playing the hero should he not be expected to act like one? How about Unintentionally Sympathetic instead, as in the audience are meant to view Barry's action as a step too far and wrong but instead understand and even agree with his reasoning.

Edited by Tuvok on May 7th 2022 at 10:50:04 AM

The issue in this very particular scene was that Joe acted as if Barry was gonna murder an innocent man, when he was simply considering to not help Thawne and let him suffer the consequences of his own heinous actions. This coupled with the fact that the man they were talking about was the man who killed Barry's mother made Joe come of as extremely self-righteous and very insensitive as well. So it's not necessarily just the fact that Joe did object, it's mainly the "how" the fans took offense with.

I mean Joe is a good cop. Not only that a cop that was actually killed by Thawne. Him expecting the people he raised to be good people to take the high ground as he had unsympathetic? Possibly. In character, definitely. However forgetting that is there enough of a general audience reaction viewing it as unsympathetic for it to be added as an example?

Edited by Tuvok on May 8th 2022 at 1:22:57 AM