Miraculous Ladybug

Well doesn't being a sociopath mean you have no empathy or care or emotional support.

To link a character consistently to The Sociopath, I feel there needs to be harder facts, if not outright confirmation, beyond "this character acts like a jerk and never feels bad about it". If that was all it took, why isn't Chloe linked to that trope? Heck, there actually have been salty fans who accused Adrien of fitting the trope due to the sheer difference in his personality as himself vs. as Cat Noir, but does that Alternate Character Interpretation mean it's canonically true? Of course not. It just seems like prevailing fanon view (because Lila hasn't actually been in that many episodes of the series at this point - just 10 total, and a few of them as just brief cameos) is influencing this rather than canon. Lila has an Ambiguous Disorder and might be a sociopath, which is why I said that it's an implied trope at best, but outright saying she is a sociopath as a matter of fact when that has never been stated in the show or Word of God is jumping the gun.

Neither that, nor Eviler Than Thou about amount of damage you do, but about attitude.

No, it's really not. It's about when one villain proves themselves eviler than another through defeating them or supplanting them or going against their wishes in some horrible way. Thusfar, Lila has been nothing but The Dragon to Hawk Moth. Now, if she ends up betraying him and becoming the new Hawk Moth, then she will fit the trope. Until then, Hawk Moth's the most evil.

The most obvious of which being that unless the plot actually notes or establishes that them being teenagers impedes their moral compass, how old the characters are is irrelevant to how evil they are.

I present this as evidence. I quote: "Although on second thought, she might need an ally rather than an enemy. Because if she continues down this path, she will become the perfect prey for Hawk Moth. OK, I'll make an effort to try and help her. Maybe I could ask Adrien to give me a hand - I know he doesn't believe her lies either. It won't be easy, but maybe together, the two of us can save her."

See, things like this suggest that the intent isn't that Lila is a sociopath, but that since her Start of Darkness she's just been going further off the slippery slope, but that she can still be "saved".

Not to mention that if you're going to go around erasing examples of The Sociopath based on characters simply being cruely and lacking in empathy rather than full on established sociopathy, you're going to have a lot of work ahead of you behind this one show - as that's the way the trope is generally used on our site.

Given the seriousness of the mental disorder, I would think there would be far higher standards for it in terms of what the character actually does to display it. The worst Lila has done that isn't related to high school mean girl antics is wanting Ladybug destroyed even when not Akumatized - something that Gabriel, Nathalie, and now Chloe have also been guilty of. And if Even Evil Has Loved Ones disqualifies them, what about Lila's mother who she's clearly upset is not around or Adrien whom, even if her love for him is twisted, she loves all the same given that her Pinocchio-nose horn in "Oni-Chan" didn't react when she said so?

Especially if you're just doing so under the perception that people who added it are "butthurt."

Have you read any "ML salt fics"? Given that the majority stemmed from that one episode where Lila got the whole class against Marinette, it's far from a stretch to conclude that most of the ire she faces comes from that episode. Being a Hate Sink is one thing, but over-hyping that character's heinousness just because they hurt your feelings by making your favorite character suffer is another.

Edited by Isaac_Heller on May 3rd 2020 at 9:34:53 AM

Again, how evil you are has nothing to do with that. If she betrayed him for benevolent reasons, she would be less evil, not more evil.

Now Chloe has displayed the ability to feel guilty before. I actually wouldn't object to her being labelled the sociopath but there is no inconsistency in not giving her the trope and instead giving it to someone who has never displayed feelings of guilt before.

Yes, a sociopath has characteristics like lack of empathy etc., But, for example, if Lila had empathy, she would not act he way she does. The traits of a sociopath are all ones she consistently displays. In fact, if she was revealed to not be a sociopath, I would consider it a retcon, as people who are not sociopaths do not act the way that Lila acts.

Again, how evil you are has nothing to do with that. If she betrayed him for benevolent reasons, she would be less evil, not more evil.

I said "betray him and become the new Hawk Moth". Becoming Hawk Moth is not benevolent.

Here is the Laconic description of the trope: "One villain defeats another, usually easily, to demonstrate how much of a threat they are." So until Lila defeats Hawk Moth or surpasses him in any way, saying she's Eviler than Thou makes no sense since she's merely his lackey.

Now Chloe has displayed the ability to feel guilty before.

Not according to Word of God, who says people who thought that completely misinterpreted the character and that she is entirely self-focused even in her supposed guilt. And bear in mind, I'm not saying that makes her a sociopath. It, like Lila, just makes her a high school bitch

But, for example, if Lila had empathy, she would not act he way she does. The traits of a sociopath are all ones she consistently displays. In fact, if she was revealed to not be a sociopath, I would consider it a retcon, as people who are not sociopaths do not act the way that Lila acts.

So, according to you, any Jerkass in a series who acts like a Jerkass and isn't shown feeling remorse for acting like a Jerkass...is a sociopath. That's how low your standards for the trope are?

Edited by Isaac_Heller on May 3rd 2020 at 9:39:37 AM

Since you mentioned Chloe, while I was watching "Stormy Weather 2," I said aloud "Sheesh; how many times does Chloe have to learn her lesson until it stays learned?"

Edited by Demetrios on May 3rd 2020 at 11:41:06 AM

She won't she'll just get angry, blame everyone for her own mistakes, and then act like she did nothing wrong. And its a problem she continues to do even under the pretenses of being a hero at time. For as much as I enjoy her, part of the problem is that she won't grow completely or take responsiblity for her actions.

Notable objection here: our trope page are not psychological diagnoses, they're narrative concepts. Lila literally having a disorder and clinically being a sociopath is not necessary for her to be The Sociopath.

To be honest, between the two tropes, I think Ambiguous Disorder is the one that tends to be overused, not The Sociopath.

We actually had a conversation about this a few pages back, but it's more the case that Chloe was written as capable of guilt and having remorse about who she was, before the writers decided they wanted to take her in a different direction and thus changed her minds.

This does not invalidate all the scenes in which she was written that way, it only means that going forward she's not going to be allowing herself to feel that way.

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 3rd 2020 at 4:08:32 AM

Being Hawk Moth is supposed to be benevolent. But yes, she does not fit that exact trope. That wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point was that her not performing that action doesn't prevent her from being litterally more evil than Hawk Moth. (However, apologies for my confusion about the actual trope)

Also, Word of God was actually that Chloe has the capacity to be redeemed, but never will. Not the same thing. They even said that they thought she would be redeemed at first. Her displaying selfish guilt is still better than what Lila has managed and Word of God does not trump what is litterally on screen anyway. That said, there's a reason I said I wouldn't actually object to her being assigned that trope.

And yes, that is what my standards for that trope are. Sociopathy is actually a rather common psychiatric disorder. You probably know several people who have it. A huge percentage of CE Os have it, for example. And in general, psychiatric and social conditions are diagnosed entirely based on symptoms. They are not like other diseases where you can check for the presence of bacteria/toxins/organ damage. If you act like you have it, then, by definition, you do.

Edited by Sereg on May 3rd 2020 at 9:32:47 AM

"Cat Blanc" is one sad episode. :(

Given the way the conversation went, I reviewed the edits made and - looking at them - decided they might as well stay. It's mostly just changing tangential potholes anyway.

I have finished watching all three seasons of Miraculous Ladybug. :)

-Beat-

Well now what do I do?

Indulge in fics

I like how confident Marinette can be. :) When she's not being adorkable around Adrien, that is. Like when Alya got akumatized for the first time:

Tikki: But Marinette, you're going to have to fight your best friend. :(
Marinette: No. I'm going to save my best friend.

Yeah, that's something I appreciate about the show. The kids really feel like kids

I noticed that Gabriel has a similarity to Batman. His voice sounds a bit deeper and rougher when he becomes Hawk Moth.

Incredibly rich recluse, has a theme involving a flying creature... though Gabriel is very much an inverse in a lot of ways

I'm as casual to this show as they come, but I'm fairly sure I caught a season four trailer on UK channel POP today just before Beast Morphers.

Can't find anything about it.

However.

Enjoy Hawk Moth's Rap Song.

Maybe it was just season three, since those are the episodes airing before Power Rangers in the afternoons. Early season three too.

It's just some of the footage suggested to me it might have been new...but again, I'm very casual and I usually just read the occasional details on what's going on. I've been meaning to watch more of it

Why do they switch a lot about whether or not there's an "h" in Cat Noir's superhero name? :S

Cat is an English name, Chat is French. But many fans use the French one.

There's a brand new Ladybug special airing tonight in the USA's Disney Channel at 8pm ET.

I stopped watching this show after season 2 because I got tired of how repetitive and formulaic it was. Did it ever get better, or is it still the same?

If you didn't like season 2 you won't like season 3.

Edited by Perseus on Sep 25th 2020 at 11:31:12 PM

Huh. I was hoping "Marinette goes to New York and meets new heroes" would mean fighting a villain other than Hawkmoth and doing something different. But it looks like Hawkmoth's still the bad guy.

I don't dislike Season 3, but this definitely isn't the kind of show where it's strict adherence to formula without any major development is entertaining at this point. Scooby Doo, it ain't.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 25th 2020 at 11:40:43 AM