Needs Help (titles crowner 6/2/14): Medieval Japan

From the title, it really sounds like it's a Useful Note or just for settings set in Medieval Japan but the description makes it out to be a Western interpretation of Japan as a Theme Park Version or Hollywood History version of Japan (which is completely not indicated by its title).

Then of the six examples, only one of them isn't a ZCE and it's specifically saying that they did do the research. I'm not familiar with any of the other works so I'm not certain if they're just Western works set in Medieval Japan, or if they're Hollywood History versions.

I feel like the lack of definition is part of the reason this is so underused, since I daresay there's a lot more than six examples of Western fiction set during then.

Works set during this period seem to be covered by Jidaigeki, which also has a bit of historical stuff on it. Thoughts?

Jidaigeki is ... in need of an English name. Oh, wait, it already has Feudal Japan as a redirect.

Feudal vs. Medieval ... wait, what?

In-page examples are definitely zero context. Approx. 30 articles linking to it — how do they fare?

edited 8th Jul '13 3:09:16 PM by Stratadrake

First ten real examples:

Age of Empires II: Mentions historic battles in Medieval Japan... take from that what you will.

Video Game/Alteil: Says it's a fantasy counterpart culture to Medieval Japan... which means it's misuse since A: It should be Feudal Japan and B: That's called Wutai

Characters/Dominions: Ditto

Fighting Fantasy: ... ditto.

Flavor and Story Tropes: Says it uses a mixture of the two... but again, I'm pretty sure that is just Wutai.

Friendly Enemy: Real life example, so it should be Feudal Japan.

Gilbert And Sullivan: Unambiguously correct.

Hollywood History; Live-Action TV: Administrative, so they don't count.

No Peripheral Vision: Correct.

Occidental Otaku: Um, tough to say. The example uses both Jidaigeki and Medieval Japan, but it seems to use Jidaigeki for the Hollywood History example and Medieval Japan for the "guy who teaches Japanese history" one, which seems backwards.

Oddly Named Sequel 2: Electric Boogaloo: Refers to a fictional nation that's a "clone of Medieval Japan" so... wouldn't this be Wutai?

Okay, my conclusion is that either I am vastly misunderstanding Wutai, or other people are. Also note that most examples were potholes, not its own example.

edited 8th Jul '13 3:28:07 PM by Larkmarn

I'd merge with Wutai. The correct use looks Too Rare to Trope.

Seems like this needs to be a disambig between Wutai and Jidaigeki.

That makes sense.

That said, as Stratadrake pointed out, would it make sense to reverse the redirect and change Jidaigeki's name to Feudal Japan?

With 358 wicks, the default response is "No, why?".

Jidaigeki (時代劇) refers to a genre. It's not a trope about Feudal Japan in general.

EDIT: I no longer support making this a disambiguation. See my post below to see why.

"Feudal vs. Medieval ... wait, what?"

Technically, Feudal refers to a social/political structure, and Medieval refers to a time period. One can have a medieval society that is not feudal, and vice versa.

edited 24th Jul '13 4:58:55 PM by Catbert

Speaking of this, who wants to help me with a possible Pre Imperial Japan useful notes?

Feudal vs. medieval have different definitions, but Medieval Japan and Feudal Japan are one in the same.

^^Ask on YKTTW.

Crowner for the disambig?

I'm not opposed to it.

Looks like the crowner's been attached.

I thought Eddie was opposed to Japanese names for pages here?

Probably. That said, if you want to rename either trope, you should make a thread for these.

We're not making any new ones, but we're only changing the existing ones when they turn out to be confusing.

Wutai, at least, is not a Japanese name. Its Trope Namer is a location in Final Fantasy. If you look closely at the definition, it should only apply to a Fantasy Counterpart Culture that is based on Japan but is not in fact Japan.

Jidaigeki is the name of a genre of Japanese period drama. It is a preexisting term. Properly speaking, it should only be used for Japanese Media set during the Edo period (1603 to 1868) or earlier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jidaigeki

So actually, our approach was mistaken.

If we get rid of Medieval Japan, there will be no category for Western depictions of Japanese historical pieces.

I now withdraw my previous agreement with the suggestion to merge. I think that merging it would be a mistake, and the desire to merge it has risen from people not reading the trope definitions closely enough to catch the distinctions.

Medieval Japan says "But in Hollywood, Japanese history is pretty much one long indistinct period filled with..." and "For a look at native Japanese anime and live action film depictions of this era, see Jidaigeki."

Clearly "Hollywood" is meant here to mean Western Media. It is contrasted with Japanese Media, which is Jidaigeki.

Medieval Japan also says "The fantasy equivalent is Wutai."

That is backed up by the description on the Wutai page, which says "The village/country/continent in a Medieval European Fantasy world which has inexplicably (and suspiciously) fashioned itself off Jidaigeki."

edited 24th Jul '13 5:00:50 PM by Catbert

If so, Medieval Japan may need a new name.

That might be a good idea. The first thing that comes to mind is Hollywood Medieval Japan, but I'm not sure if making more Hollywood Style trope names is still considered permissable, or if that would be regarded as snowcloning.

Also, based on a quick look, Jidaigeki needs cleanup for misuse. It might also be a good idea to custom title it as a Jidaigeki (Genre) to address concerns about using Japanese terms which are not well known to your average American.

edited 25th Jul '13 5:12:22 AM by Catbert

I would support the latter notion, but as a separate discussion.

Good catch, catbert!

Bump for votes.

Bump again.