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Putting examples in alphabetical order

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Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
Apr 9th 2013 at 6:13:44 PM

[up]For an index or simple list, it should be one or the other, definitely. Don't see any real reason to prefer one over the other, but if they're sorted by date, then the date should be listed for each one so it's obvious that they are sorted.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Apr 10th 2013 at 1:19:33 AM

I prefer alphabetic, if only because I find it easier to add and find items then.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Apr 16th 2013 at 5:34:20 AM

[up] I can't argue with that. In fact, when I was adding wicks to The Purge, I made sure to try to sort the Live-Action Film lists in alphabetical order before putting in the wicks (in alphabetical order).

Yeah, here's an idea: the next time you set up a wick for a work, why not sort out the list you're putting the wick in alphabetically before you put it in? grin

I found out that some of the lists not only contain specific examples, but even have "in general" examples listed. You can see for yourself here. How should "in general" examples be handled?

Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Apr 16th 2013 at 5:38:53 AM

The "general" examples I see there are Word Cruft.

If you are speaking of examples like "This medium has lots of examples of this", either move them to the description or

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Apr 16th 2013 at 8:32:59 AM

Or put them in analysis if they are any good.

Telcontar In uffish thought from England
In uffish thought
Apr 16th 2013 at 12:21:25 PM

Ja. How To Write An Example#KeepItAnExample (click it, it exists) says general examples don't belong in the example folders.

That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.
NTC3 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
May 7th 2014 at 5:19:10 AM

I'm a big fan of alphabetical orders myself, and managed to alphabetise around 50 trope pages by now. You can see them on a list on my troper page, alongside other edits.

I also always try to alphabetise the trope pages when cross-wicking. Unfortunately, this also means I only managed to fully cross-wick around 3 works so far. :( I should get going faster on this once I free up with RL, however.

Finally, a question: what to do when alphabetising novels that are part of a differently -titled universe? With, say, Dies the Fire, do you place it at D for Dies, or E for Emberverse? Or, to give another example, would it be N for Night Watch or D for Discworld? This is something I frequently run into when editing, and I'm not sure how to address that.

IndirectActiveTransport You Give Me Fever from Chicago Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
You Give Me Fever
May 8th 2014 at 5:17:09 AM

I could say a lot on "alphabetization" but on trope page specifically, let's not do it and say we never did drop to alphabetizing them. A good deal are too long for the "casual reader" to finish anyway, I know because as casual reader, I would get the idea of what the trope was and then go do something else. Didn't need to see every example under the sun, "subverted" or otherwise.

Okay, never's a strong word but this proposal adds little but editing time, time on this site in general which has already been increased by example indentation, cross wicking, name spacing, elaboration where it really isn't tasteful or needed(why yes, falling off the roof is dangerous, what else do I need to type in the context of Backyard wrestling?), a trivia tab, a tab for varying mileage, a discussion tab where it is impossible to tell if any discussion exists prior to clicking, a tab for character tropes, character tabs becoming individual pages for characters with their own tabs, this pesky log-in screen name-not that any of this is even annoying taken by itself. You still don't have any of my emails, unless your cookies somehow stole it, but put it all together and I ask what about them? What about the casual editor? I used to be one of those once, believe it or not.

It is a relief the trope pages themselves are still low maintenance, image pickin, repair shop and special efforts aside. Take examples as they come to people's mind, throw them in their sections, done. If we must impose some "order" I would second a "rough" chronology. If you know its older than the rest, feel free to put it up front. If it came around the same time as something else put it next to it. If you don't know, put it at the bottom. We're at the trope page to read documentation on how a tropes is used, not see a showcase fiction and or people someone thought was important. If a user wanted such a thing a user would has various indexes dedicated to that purpose already. Seeing how use of the trope has changed over time at least might be meaningful enough to put yet another thing on the "to do" list. Otherwise it is arbitrary to the documentation of trope use and therefore superfluous, unneeded and annoying.

That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
May 8th 2014 at 6:28:18 AM

First, due to the way the information on this wiki is contained, the chronology is eventually lost.

Second, if you wanted to skip around on trope pages, and read the examples from works you are familiar with, it becomes impossible without some sort of pattern like alphabetization.

Third, How to Alphabetize Things and How to Write an Example provide guidelines.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
May 8th 2014 at 6:31:05 AM

And before anyone raises that point, "search" doesn't always work on account of different pages sometimes using different work titles and (much more importantly) not all devices have a search function.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
IndirectActiveTransport You Give Me Fever from Chicago Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
You Give Me Fever
May 9th 2014 at 1:56:47 PM

How would anything be lost if it was kept in the same order? You could make the same argument about alphabetizing at that point. The same about skipping around for works, if different pages are using different titles they are going to be in different place anyway.

And again, the point of the trope pages is not to showcase works people are familiar with, just when the trope was used. Alphabetizing the examples therefore does nothing for that purpose. There is not much practical reason to go about changing the overwhelming number of pages that are not ordered that way just to accommodate some people who want them ordered a certain way. This is like changing Anime and Manga to Manga and Anime because some people did not like the Japanese stuff being on the top of the page and couldn't be bothered to just scroll by it, except it will take even longer, slowing down progress of things like cross wicking or simply adding examples in the first place.

edited 9th May '14 1:57:37 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
theAdeptRogue iRidescence Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
iRidescence
May 10th 2014 at 9:01:02 AM

[up]Except that there's no way of knowing that all new examples are added into the bottom of the folder, and not wherever the editor sees fit.

The chronological order doesn't mean anything to new readers/editors, and I've seen some trope pages where the same example is listed twice because the editor apparently didn't looked through the list carefully enough before adding the example.

crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
May 13th 2014 at 5:51:40 AM

If different pages are using different titles they are going to be in different place anyway.


That also happens to be against site policy.

Certain types of ZCE and natter also indicate that examples may have been added in a "best fit" position, instead of chronological. Chronological also has an issue with examples moved to discussion, and then re-added (do they go in the original location or the new lowest?).

Overall, chronological order works to keep tropers from pointless editing like you describe, but does not actually serve any sort of organization that can be used by people visiting our site.

Edit: and I just now realized that you might be using "chronological order" in a form different than this site's default meaning. If you mean to suggest examples are organized by the decade a work uses them, that would be a special order system. I am a bit of an advocate for individual trope pages making use of unique organization patterns when it can, but that chronology is not the default. The default is "last-come, last in the list".

edited 13th May '14 6:00:44 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
IndirectActiveTransport You Give Me Fever from Chicago Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
You Give Me Fever
May 14th 2014 at 2:39:28 PM

I know it is against site policy. My point is changing one site policy is not going to solve the violation of another. As far as just getting trope examples, this proposal is another superfluous change for someone's preference.

I know who did it first/when it happened first is not default, just saying if last bottom is no longer going to be the default entry that's the best (if perhaps, the most difficult) thing to replace it with. Chronology in that sense does at least one thing for new users/casual readers/whoever, it educates. I had no idea about Rico Constantino and Miss Jackie being inspired by Adrian Street, who manages to keep performing in his old age, and miss Linda. Not only are they worth talking about in Rico's entry but are worth an entry all their own, it makes sense to put them in descending order before we go off to the very much unrelated Razor Ramon HG.

A lot of people still don't seem to get the point that George Wagner's gimmick was about being Ambiguously Gay and I suppose they don't need to but it they are nice things to know if you're interested in a given topic.

edited 14th May '14 2:40:44 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
May 14th 2014 at 7:21:54 PM

Okay, I'm going to go over this carefully....

You are the first person to mention a change to this site's policy. Your example was of violating the policy of wicking to a work's page instead of creating a Sink Hole or using a Re Direct would make the alphabetization policy useless for organizing. In other words, breaking one site policy is actually affecting how well another site policy functions.

So there's no example here of a site policy change solving the violation of another policy. That's not even on the table. This thread is not about any changes in site policy regarding the order of any pages, trope or work.

Rico Constantino and Miss Jackie being inspired by Adrian Street should be on the appropriate Referenced by... and Shout-Out pages. I have no clue what "entry" you mean because you didn't link a page.

I'm also not certain what your point is about George Wagner

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
IndirectActiveTransport You Give Me Fever from Chicago Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
You Give Me Fever
May 15th 2014 at 4:08:41 PM

Gorgeous George is the page and it was linked. Okay, the link was broken the first time I posted, don't know if I fixed it in the edit before you posted or not (the time confuses me, apparently I edited the post before I posted it)

That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
May 15th 2014 at 7:21:17 PM

Yes, the timestamps can be confusing sometimes. The word "gimmick" was potholed to Gorgeous George, but as it was in a different paragraph with Wagner as the subject, I didn't see a connection. Now I understand the relevance better, but still not the point of the final paragraph.

No, there's no reason why showing how "Exotic" Adrian Street used the Gorgeous George trope should mention anyone else's usage of the trope. Nor does Rico Constantino have to be lower in the list in order to reference Street. Examples from one work should not depend on their proximity to a separate work.

Reading one example, you could find a related example if the examples were organized in a pattern, otherwise you'd have to skim the entire page. Easy enough for Gorgeous George, difficult for Fragile Speedster.

edited 15th May '14 7:25:36 PM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
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