The Scrappy Cleanup

Maybe both.

Definitely both. Batgirl was hated specifically, part of it due to one scene where she takes out her frustration with Bruce by assaulting a random guy having a minor disagreement with his girlfriend.

Edited by stankykong on Jun 20th 2023 at 7:43:39 AM

Seems like she could qualify then, at least in my opinion. I'm not a huge fan and I knew about the hate, though I thought the hate was mostly because of the really uncomfortable sex scene.

If we try listing everything that made the first half of the movie unwatchable we'll be here all day.

Looking at TheScrappy.Marvel Universe - there are a few examples where the character dislike slides a bit too far into creator bashing and complaining, which I'll try to work through, but also...

First sentence of Cindy Moon's entry:

• Cindy Moon aka Silk was this when she was first introduced (she got seriously Rescued from the Scrappy Heap when her ongoing came out though).

So... easy cut, should be listed on Rescued from the Scrappy Heap and not here?

I didn’t mean Shadow Prime was hated I was just pointing out Sega considers it canon to the games despite all the contradictions

No arguments here.

I've said this before, but I don't think we should cut examples from The Scrappy where the character got rescued later, because by definition being Rescued from the Scrappy Heap means they were the Scrappy at one point. There's a general tendency on the site to cut once-valid things because they're not the case anymore, but I've never agreed with it - I'd rather document the whole history.

It's a rule not because it's "not the case anymore", it's because Rescued is the subtrope, and you never use the supertrope if the subtrope is in play.

This. In the same way we wouldn't list, say, both Fan Nickname and Ascended Fan Nickname.

Rescued from the Scrappy Heap examples should talk about why they were The Scrappy as well as how they were rescued.

Out of curiosity can we make this the RFTSH cleanup as well? I noticed a lot of examples who are either Base Breaking Characters or don't explain why that character WAS a Scrappy. Like MLP's Wonderbolts have a vocal minority hatedom amongst people who felt they were too mean to RD, Lightning Dust, and in Spitfire's case, Scootaloo. It's a minority so they more fit under Base-Breaking Character.

Edited by Klavice on Jun 21st 2023 at 11:22:10 AM

I think that should be fine.

YMMV/Pokemon (about the TCG):

• The Scrappy: With Champion's Path being a particularly hated expansion, the version of Machamp in the set is often mocked and used as a scapegoat for disgruntled players not being able to pull the set's extremely rare Charizard cards due to its disproportionately high pull rate, to the point of "Machampion's Path" becoming a derogatory Fan Nickname for the set.

Not quite sure if this counts. It seems to me like it could fit better as Low-Tier Letdown or Undesirable Prize, since the Machamp is hated for gameplay reasons.

Cut as not hated for narrative reasons.

l'd making this Rescued from the Scrappy Heap cleanup as well. But there are these question about it that chocked up prior efforts to do so. Does Rescued count if:

• They were supposed to be hated for such a opposed to unintentionally hated?
• They were rescued prior to the 6 month wait/were intended to be "fixed" all along as opposed to after the fact?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jun 22nd 2023 at 12:36:31 PM

I'd say if they were fixed before the 6 month wait then they don't belong, since they wouldn't qualify as Scrappy to begin with. Let's take Ahsoka Tano from Star Wars: The Clone Wars, she was designed to be annoying at first without being a Hate Sink and develop into a beloved character, but since it took multiple seasons to get to that point it would be fair to label her Rescued since she had so much genuine vitriol for such a long time and writers don't have full control over how a character is going to be perceived to begin with.

Edited by stankykong on Jun 22nd 2023 at 7:44:28 AM

I raised that over on the NREP thread a couple of days back - The Scrappy has a six month rule, but Rescued from the Scrappy Heap currently doesn't. Which seems odd.

If there are no objections here, we can look at adding one via the usual No Recent Examples, Please! crowner route.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 22nd 2023 at 7:02:09 PM

Giving Rescued from the Scrappy Heap a waiting period to try to prevent knee-jerk reactions sounds right to me.

I'm all for NREP for Rescued. However I personally say the waiting period for Scrappy and it's related tropes should be 6 months after the season has ended for TV shows if it's not already and 6 months in addition to a two week waiting period for people to finish games. Does this seem tedious? Yes. Will it prevent knee-jerk reactions? Absolutely.

Edited by Klavice on Jun 23rd 2023 at 1:31:00 AM

I'm not convinced the additional two weeks makes much difference for games - will knee-jerk reactions suddenly drop away between 26 and 28 weeks?

The current phrasing is six months from character introduction or the point where the character starts to become a scrappy, which should work just as well for episodic works, imo. And season rules always need alternatives for episodic works without seasons (e.g. comics, many soap operas).

That's all really a discussion for the NREP thread, though, which would need to vote on any change.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 23rd 2023 at 9:49:33 AM

From YMMV.The Quest For Karla:

• The Scrappy: It's very hard to find a fan who likes Ann Smiley.

I could expand this to get it out of ZCE territory, but it'd still be misuse so I'd rather just cut it.

Ann is protagonist George Smiley's wife, who's The Ghost in many of the books. They do not have a happy marriage. Ann is attractive and from a blue blood family, Smiley is a little man who gets described as "toad" and "mole".

• The first Smiley book starts after she's left him for a Cuban racing driver. She writes to ask about reconciliation at the end of the book, after the affair breaks down.
• In Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy she's had a very well-publicised affair with one of Smiley's workmates, who's also her own (relatively distant) cousin.
• At the start of The Honourable Schoolboy Smiley's apparently had enough and ended their marriage before the start of the book. It's not that simple, but...

I really don't think readers are supposed to like Ann - so she's not The Scrappy.

I'll cut and link here in case anyone wants to challenge it.

Relating to earlier discussion on IDW Shadow and Rescued, these were recently added/edited in YMMV.Sonic The Hedgehog IDW:

• Rescued from the Scrappy Heap: The Urban Warfare arc managed to do this for Shadow. After years of fans lambasting the IDW version of Shadow for having his jerkass traits and cockiness amplified, only to get constantly hit by The Worf Effect, Urban Warfare saw him portrayed as more level-headed and less antagonistic, while being more than capable of backing up his boasts of power. Was just added.
• The Scrappy: In the first few years of the comic's run, the IDW version of Shadow was poorly received, largely due to two factors during this period. Him being unable to win a fight, and his Adaptational Personality Change that leaned far too heavily into Shadow’s Anti-Hero traits. In regard to the the former, his Suicidal Overconfidence gets him turned into a Zombot in issue #19, and then is later helpless to prevent Metal Sonic and Starline from knocking him on his ass and running off. The latter made Shadow's personality too much like a Jerkass anti-hero while also removing some of his more likable traits. This was exasperated by the Executive Meddling that had pushed Shadow in this direction, resulting in him being Put on a Bus until further notice. It wasn't until the Urban Warfare arc in 2023 where opinions on Shadow turned around, as detailed under Rescued from the Scrappy Heap. Was deleted by the one who added Rescued, but a separate troper added them back.

I assume Rescued is fine for now pending No Recent Examples cleanups call. But this raises further questions about his qualifying as Scrappy.

• Most other Scrappy examples are cut if they get Rescued. Exceptions are Scrappy-Doo, Jar Jar Binks, and those hated so much/long it remains part of their character perception. Not sure if this applies to IDW Shadow (this seems an argument for Rescued requiring a waiting period).
• The above seems argument for removing IDW Shadow if he wasn't hated that long, especially considering franchise-wide popularity. (If he does/still counts, I'd say it should cite Writer Conflicts with Canon to justify treating as a separate version.)

Thoughts?

On the subject of thread scope -

Should we consider expanding to cover Take That, Scrappy!, Alas, Poor Scrappy and/or Temporary Scrappy as well?

They all get similar sorts of misuse - if the character isn't some variant of The Scrappy, the first two don't really apply. And the line between The Scrappy and Temporary Scrappy sometimes gets mixed up, but the character's role in a particular story shouldn't be on both sides of it?

A proposal for the suggested No Recent Examples, Please! rule on Rescued from the Scrappy Heap:

• High-Tier Scrappy and Low-Tier Letdown are all about play balance for video/tabletop games. Very different to the other Scrappy scenarios.
• Nine months is six months for the character to initially qualify as TheScrappy, then three months to judge the shift in fan reaction (which is likely to be based on sequels or later episodes in most cases). It would seem very odd to list someone as TheScrappy at the six month mark, then as Rescued a day later.
• Ethnic Scrappy and Damsel Scrappy don't currently have the same six month rule but, unless anyone objects, it's probably simpler to keep Rescued consistent rather than have a list of wait times for the different variations.

Sound ok? If so, I'll formally take it to the NREP threaf for a crowner.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 25th 2023 at 9:14:44 AM

Sounds good to me.

Most of that, but questions about Rescued from the Scrappy Heap.

• I assume this means if the character was "Rescused" before 6 months they never counted as Scrappies, right? Or is it the 9 months that means they never counted?
• Why 3 months since the 6 to qualify as Scrappy? Ensemble Dark Horse which is also about popularity only has 1 month. (Relating I'd say 1 month for High-Tier Scrappy and Low-Tier Letdown since such is also about popularity and gives the metagame time to settle.)

To covering possible misuse of Alas, Poor Scrappy and Take That, Scrappy!. But Temporary Scrappy has unhealthfully few wicks and seems redundant with Hate Sink, predating its widespread use. I'd say it needs a TRS before this thread decides on what to do with it.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jun 26th 2023 at 11:15:12 AM