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Alright, so in TRS Badass Gay came up for discussion and it was agreed that there appears to big problem with the Badass X tropes in general, which needs to be sorted out until something can be ruled on for Badass Gay.

Here's a courtesy link: TRS page. And Badass page with its subtropes.

Noted Problems include:

  • Tropes are just listings of characters people thing are badass who happen to have a certain trait. (The Badass + Trait Problem)
  • Badass X as a naming scheme is actually very vague and doesn't give a lot of insight into what the character trope actually is, assuming it is a trope.
  • Badass X as a naming scheme proliferates the use of Badass + Trait 'tropes'.

Suggested things to do include:

  • Make it a requirement that a badass character trope means a character is "badass because of a trait", or "badass in spite of a trait".
  • Renaming away from the Badass X naming scheme as much as possible.
  • Cut, redefine or re-purpose things that are just Badass + trait.

There are also a lot of tropes that seem to be valid character-types, but have the naming scheme 'Badass X', when there's more to the trope than that. There are also a lot of prop or event or whatever tropes that need to be gone through as well.

edited 3rd Feb '13 1:06:28 AM by lu127

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Jan 7th 2012 at 1:38:21 AM

I'd like to soft split it show how it's badass though. So, it'll most likely be either Badass contrasting with some other trait or Badass, and a trait/prop that is used to highlight how badass they are. I'd rather lump the Badass Stereotype By Country thing off on its own.

Fight smart, not fair.
Jimmmyman10 cannot into space from polan Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
cannot into space
Jan 7th 2012 at 6:51:05 AM

I vote keep for the first six. I vote keep for a lot of these, but shouldn't we take some of them off this list? Almighty Janitor is a trope, but only sometimes is it a badass trope.

EDIT: Also, I vote we add Badass Furry to the possible cut list, as that one seems like the least tropeable to me.

edited 7th Jan '12 6:52:15 AM by Jimmmyman10

Go play Kentucky Route Zero. Now.
Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Jan 7th 2012 at 6:51:56 AM

Keep on the first group.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Jan 7th 2012 at 7:20:46 AM

Keep on first group.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
lu127 Paper Master from 空蝉丸
Jan 7th 2012 at 8:14:16 AM

Also keep on first group.

NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Jan 7th 2012 at 4:48:52 PM

I went ahead and moved them all to keep. Here's next group:

I say keep Action Hero,Action Survivor and Agent Peacock, Cut Ambadassasor or change to something like "Send The Badass To Negotiate", and possibly rename Adaptational Badass, because every time I see it I think it's a character that becomes badass over time (like a duplicate of Action Survivor) but it's when a character in a former installment wasn't a badass and in a remake or adaptation they make them a badass.

edited 7th Jan '12 4:49:35 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Jan 7th 2012 at 4:53:30 PM

I actually think Ambadassador should be kept as a "contrast" (although that name is a pain to spell). Vote keep on Action Hero, Action Survivor, and Agent Peacock, possible TRS on Adaptational Badass.

NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Jan 7th 2012 at 5:11:03 PM

I really don't think it is a contrast. Why wouldn't an ambassador be a badass? There's nothing inherent in being an ambassador that means they usually aren't cool or badass, IMO.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Jan 7th 2012 at 5:13:49 PM

For the sake of argument, I'll note that an ambassador is supposed to be a diplomat, not a fighter.

nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Jan 7th 2012 at 5:19:48 PM

[up]Precisely. Other leadership roles may have Authority Equals Asskicking implied, but "ambassador" doesn't.

NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Jan 7th 2012 at 6:27:04 PM

They aren't expected to be badasses but neither is there any particular reason they are expected to not be badasses. There's nothing about being an ambassador that says they shouldn't be badass. To me, it's just "Ambassador that happens to also be badass".

edited 7th Jan '12 6:28:22 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Jan 7th 2012 at 7:14:19 PM

Like Arha said, "diplomat, not a fighter". I'd certainly think that a normal ambassador is actively "non-badass".

Jimmmyman10 cannot into space from polan Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
cannot into space
Jan 7th 2012 at 8:08:51 PM

Yeah, same here. Vote possible change name on Adaptational Badass, and keep on the others.

Go play Kentucky Route Zero. Now.
NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Jan 7th 2012 at 8:11:44 PM

A normal ambassador is expected not to kick people's asses, but they aren't expected to not be able to kick peoples' asses. Especially in fantasy and scifi, ambassadors usually are badasses in more cases than not. In fact they are usually badasses who are appointed to the position because as badasses they'll be more respected.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Jan 7th 2012 at 8:22:44 PM

they aren't expected to not be able to kick peoples' asses

Confusing Double Negative aside, I'd say that this is not true for real life and settings that relate closely to it. In fantasy, certainly an ambassador might be selected deliberately for his badassery, but that's a case of a difference between fantasy and real life.

Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Jan 7th 2012 at 10:07:19 PM

Agree that most ambassadors are not chosen because they're more-than-competent in a physical fight. They're chosen because they're persuasive, charismatic, tactful, diplomatic, or other things along those lines. Not because they're badass.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Jan 7th 2012 at 10:38:54 PM

^ But then, does the image deliberately contrast the idea of being a badass? Or is it no more meaningful than 'a plumber who is a badass' or whatever.

Firebert That One Guy from Somewhere in Illinois
That One Guy
Jan 7th 2012 at 10:39:57 PM

So do we go by the real life implications or the media expectation for ambassadors to be chosen for their skills/powers?

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NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Jan 7th 2012 at 10:56:30 PM

Well considering these are tropes and this is media, I say the media expectation.

But like I said, I think we should change this into something like "Pick the badass to be the ambassador," because in media that tends to be what's going on.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Jan 7th 2012 at 10:59:28 PM

I could live with that.

Firebert That One Guy from Somewhere in Illinois
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Jan 7th 2012 at 11:07:19 PM

I don't think there really is a media expectation going on - if there's any specific expectation, it's probably the opposite. The in-universe trope of picking an ambassador for his/her badassery would be more like a subtrope of Asskicking Equals Authority then the current version of Ambadassador, which I maintain is a trope.

NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Jan 8th 2012 at 1:01:55 AM

"Badass despite being an ambassador" makes no sense. An ambassador being badass might be surprising but there is nothing inherent in being an ambassador that means they are unlikely to be badass, like say Pregnant Badass or Badass Adorable, and neither is it a specific character type.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Jan 8th 2012 at 3:18:31 AM

Agree on Action Hero and Ageant Peacock. I could go either way with Ambadassador in all honesty. That he's supposed to be a negotiator implies he's supposed to talk first, not fight (implying contrast). However, in many instances of fiction I've seen, it's the heroes, or their mentor, doing the negotiating so it gets used a lot as simply a character that is doing some negotiating while being a badass (making it character+trait). I could also see the concept of "send the big badass to negotiate because he'll be able to intimidate the opposition into giving us what we want" type of thing.

I would question Action Survivor though. Badass is supposed to be a trait, isn't it? Why then are we using it to describe a character that is passive in nature, and not defined by their ability to kick ass?

Fight smart, not fair.
NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Jan 8th 2012 at 5:45:23 AM

Kind of agree with you there. I don't think there's anything wrong with Action Survivor as a trope, but I don't really know if it deserves to be on the Badass list.

edited 8th Jan '12 5:46:34 AM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

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